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Post by Christopher Stryker on Dec 9, 2016 21:33:20 GMT
I see what you are getting at, and I can see scientists, researchers, and diplomats tagging along with any given party, but the fact remains that straight up mercenaries are unlikely to be involved in the Starfleet side of things. Romulans? Sure. Klingons? Sure. Starfleet? It's not how they operate. If we go with an allied force of Fed/KDF/Romulans, then I could see it. Just not with a lot of frequency. Wouldn't you think that any government entity that relies entirely on volunteer-based organizations for the protection of an ever-expanding Area of Operation will eventually have to consider augmenting their professional forces with Private Contractors? Certainly there must be a point in which the Supply of Volunteers available will not meed the Demand placed upon such an organization. At a time when we have fought our way through one mess, and find ourselves in need of as much help as we can get reconstructing...more or less by ourselves, while others are needed more immediately to put out erupting fires elsewhere, this is a perfect time to consider implementing the resources that can be provided by all numbers of Civilian-Operated Private Contracting Companies. Is there some little known statute that expressly forbids the hiring of these types of people, or are you mostly just making a character judgement based on your perception of Starfleet? If the latter is the case, seems to me that desperate times would lead to desperate measures...and people desperate to RP would be much more willing to find an explanation to include as many types of people as possible haha.
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Post by miller11b on Dec 10, 2016 3:58:40 GMT
Stryker, think of how much territory and how many planets the Federation controls. There's no way that they're going to have a shortage of volunteers for Starfleet. Additionally, Starfleet has always portrayed itself as a holier than thou organization. The odds of them intentionally and openly hiring mercenary units is beyond unlikely. Also given that the Federation has no currency, the likelyhood of any merc group hiring themselves to the Federation is unlikely. Mercs like to fight, but they like to get paid more.
Take the example of the 21st Century US. The US has hired PMC's for service in Iraq and Afghanistan. They get paid considerably well. But, if they weren't getting paid, they wouldn't do the job. Furthermore, take the Dominion War, when Starfleet was actually short personnel and material. There was no mention in canon of any merc hirings. The combination of the evidence leads me to suspect that the United Federation of Planets will not hire mercenary forces.
The Romulans, however, are well known for doing whatever they have to do. There is no question in my mind that the Romulan government will pay for merc forces if they feel it necessary. The Klingon mentality strikes me as one that would hire forces if required, but look down on them with contempt as honorless scum.
But, this isn't the thread for this discussion. This is for planning what we're doing next. I'm going to leave it to our illustrious higher ups to make a ruling on Starfleet and mercenaries. If there is canon that supports the idea of mercs working for the Federation, I will withdraw all opposition to the notion.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Dec 10, 2016 6:57:16 GMT
Stryker, think of how much territory and how many planets the Federation controls. There's no way that they're going to have a shortage of volunteers for Starfleet. Additionally, Starfleet has always portrayed itself as a holier than thou organization. The odds of them intentionally and openly hiring mercenary units is beyond unlikely. Also given that the Federation has no currency, the likelyhood of any merc group hiring themselves to the Federation is unlikely. Mercs like to fight, but they like to get paid more. Take the example of the 21st Century US. The US has hired PMC's for service in Iraq and Afghanistan. They get paid considerably well. But, if they weren't getting paid, they wouldn't do the job. Furthermore, take the Dominion War, when Starfleet was actually short personnel and material. There was no mention in canon of any merc hirings. The combination of the evidence leads me to suspect that the United Federation of Planets will not hire mercenary forces. The Romulans, however, are well known for doing whatever they have to do. There is no question in my mind that the Romulan government will pay for merc forces if they feel it necessary. The Klingon mentality strikes me as one that would hire forces if required, but look down on them with contempt as honorless scum. But, this isn't the thread for this discussion. This is for planning what we're doing next. I'm going to leave it to our illustrious higher ups to make a ruling on Starfleet and mercenaries. If there is canon that supports the idea of mercs working for the Federation, I will withdraw all opposition to the notion. This pretty much sums up my point. It doesn't preclude any involvement of independent contractors, mercenary or otherwise, it just means that they won't be hired by Starfleet. All the more reason to revive RP in the other factions though right? ;P
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 10, 2016 11:19:20 GMT
Actually, as of this time, the US has a law forbidding the use of mercenaries, and has since 1893.To quote: "The Anti-Pinkerton Act of 1893 (5 U.S.C. § 3108) forbade the U.S. government from using Pinkerton National Detective Agency employees, or similar private police companies. In 1977, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit interpreted this statute as forbidding the U.S. government from employing companies offering "mercenary, quasi-military forces" for hire."
As of 2006, a U.S. Department of Defense interim rule (effective 16 June 2006) revises DoD Instruction 3020.41 to authorize contractors, other than private security contractors, to use deadly force against enemy armed forces only in self-defense. Since some have suggested this could be interpreted as authorization to engage in combat, further clarification states: "It is the combatant commander's responsibility to ensure that private security contract mission statements do not authorize performance of inherently governmental military functions, i.e. preemptive attacks or assaults or raids, etc."So mercenaries, as people have been portraying them in various RP in STO, would never be authorized by the US government. As such, with Starfleet heavily modeled after the US Navy by its creator, Gene Roddenberry, I don't see Starfleet being inclined to hire them. And more to the point, look at the reasons people would hire mercenaries in the first place, the conditions that would bring them to consider the idea: Firstly, keep in mind that things such as logistics (ammunition, weapons, other equipment) are largely replicated, and starships are capable of providing that in more than enough quantity. "Budgets" aren't quite what we know them to be today, not in a post-scarcity society like the Federation. Secondly, as far as 'spreading thin', keep in mind a rebuttal put forward in the discussion about age minimums in Starfleet. Specifically the description of what resources are available to Starfleet in terms of worlds and populations:"The war is creating a need/demand for more members in Starfleet due to casualties." When there's a war, the need/demand for more people is almost exclusively in the enlisted ranks. Since, after all, it's mostly the enlisted ranks that wind up directly confronting the enemy on the battlefield. Putting overly young/inexperienced/improperly trained people in officer's uniforms would serve no purpose at all. Especially since the Federation, and with it Starfleet, has been growing in the years since TNG. In the time of Kirk, in the 23rd century, it consisted of a thousand worlds (TOS: "Metamorphosis"), According to Star Trek: Star Charts, there are 183 member homeworlds and 7,128 colonies/affiilate worlds by 2378, and trillions of sentient beings (supported further by Bashir's fortunately inaccurate estimation of a possible 900 billion casualties by the end of the Dominion War in DS9: "Statistical Probabilities"). Starfleet has that, and now more, to draw from. And if they truly needed an influx of officers, there are three more ethical means of increasing numbers than throwing a 17-year-old in the Captain's chair:
- Lower the standards. Starfleet Academy standards for admission are brutally strict and demanding. It's specifically mentioned that a majority of 1st year cadets wash out. Lowering the standards just a little (and I mean just a very little) could boost the numbers by 50% or more.
- Active recruiting drive. Sending people to all the worlds with honest reports of the situation would inspire a great many to volunteer, given the philosophies and mindsets of the Federation. If they only convinced a thousand people from each world to join, that's a million new people. And as we saw in America's history, there were far more than a thousand people who voluntarily enlisted just to protect one country
- Draft. The least desirable option, but still more ethical than putting minors in harms way. With over a thousand worlds , even the lightest draft quota spread across all the worlds would bring in millions of fully adult people to serve in Starfleet.
The same methods that make the drafting of overly young recruits unnecessary would also make hiring mercenaries equally unnecessary. Having said all that, Ryft and Miller are quite correct in stating that Romulans, Klingons and races affiliated with both factions are not restricted from hiring mercenaries by any means. Such an aversion is not built into the worldview of Klingon or Romulan society.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
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Post by Claudius on Dec 10, 2016 12:06:24 GMT
Exactly, Starfleet isn't a tiny group. And they are less likely to run out of people now, since they are allied with Klingons and Romulans. Two factions worth of people they can call for backup and aid.
Also, we(the RP fleet) still got a HUGE amount of ships. Its not like the RP ships are the only ships in the 146th. The Storytellers Ship List got plenty of ships marked as being part of the 146th.
EVEN IF something happens where Starfleet would use mercs, we wouldn't hire mercs to have them on standby to use whenever, if we were ever to hire them it would be a rare one-time thing. And then cut connection with them.
Secondly, as far as I can tell, the ICly leadership of the fleet are hardly even the types that would hire mercs. So who would be the ones to hire them to work with us?
Meanwhile, go to the Romulans and Klingon side characters and ask, come poke us about your mercs for hire. See who needs.
ANYWAY! Back on topic.
I would love to RP on the Hathon Bajor map. It got so much potential and so much space for RP! And there would be no "I don't wanna hang around a bar" since the map offers more than that. And yes, it gives all factions a place to gather.
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Post by LoonyEclipse on Dec 10, 2016 16:12:33 GMT
First, I like the idea of moving things planet-side. I opens up the use of a pretty nice map, doesn't isolate the fleet as much and RP-wise opens up avenues dealing with planetary politics and well as cross-RP with the KDF side. It also gives us an IC excuse to nip off to Quark's if we so wish- it's a little harder to justify if we have our own Starbase.
And, incidentally, on the topic of radio parties- open zones like Bajor are preferable to close ones like Starbase- the stations wants to maximize the amount of folks who might tune and being in a public area grants that. Also, as someone has has done the internet radio thing in the past, we rarely have much ability to rp as we broadcast- we're usually to busy taking requests, fixing our playlist and focusing on what our next talk break is to get too deep RP-wise
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Post by hszmv on Dec 13, 2016 4:47:16 GMT
Bumping in case this was missed.
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Post by miller11b on Dec 14, 2016 4:25:44 GMT
Okay, I'm proposing a committee to come up with a course of action so we can have a full plan in place, then have the fleet as a while make the call. I propose this committee be composed of myself, hszmv, Norc, and Chris. Are there any objections to this makeup?
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Post by norcaler on Dec 14, 2016 6:35:24 GMT
No objections to the above, but I'd suggest that perhaps we'd have an answer in place by the 21st during the holiday formal. I'd also definitely suggest we have the fleet admiral situation locked down before we make the move.
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 14, 2016 8:13:35 GMT
No objections to the above, but I'd suggest that perhaps we'd have an answer in place by the 21st during the holiday formal. I'd also definitely suggest we have the fleet admiral situation locked down before we make the move. The plan is actually to defer on either of these till after the new year, to allow for people who are otherwise occupied in RL and not necessarily watching this thread to participate once the holiday zaniness calms down. This is standard for any major vote or decision that comes around this close to Christmas/New Year's, and will be handled as soon as the holidays are over. In the meantime, keep the discussion going here for those who are keeping up with the forum and wish to contribute to the process.
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Post by hszmv on Dec 14, 2016 13:15:51 GMT
Gery can berate me and call me a bad Pathfinder and send me to my room without dinner if I'm wrong, but unless a major push back to this comes up, it looks like we may forgo the vote on this change. I think the worst I saw from this discussion was the question of "Does Starfleet use Mercs" which was out of scope BUT only came up because people felt this could revive interest in those who don't preach the Prime Directive... that's ultimately not a bad thing.
This is my own personal goal, but I would love to have a this established as official IC (by way of IC order from Admiral Quinn) before we post the vote for new Admiral... I would say even within the first week of January. Having said that, Hathon is an open world map and the Pathfinders certainly cannot say "No RPing as if you are part of the team setting up the offices or working on logistics in advanced of the move" (Hint Hint). Nope. Certainly cannot say that.
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 14, 2016 15:04:41 GMT
Gery can berate me and call me a bad Pathfinder and send me to my room without dinner if I'm wrong, but unless a major push back to this comes up, it looks like we may forgo the vote on this change. I think the worst I saw from this discussion was the question of "Does Starfleet use Mercs" which was out of scope BUT only came up because people felt this could revive interest in those who don't preach the Prime Directive... that's ultimately not a bad thing. This is my own personal goal, but I would love to have a this established as official IC (by way of IC order from Admiral Quinn) before we post the vote for new Admiral... I would say even within the first week of January. Having said that, Hathon is an open world map and the Pathfinders certainly cannot say "No RPing as if you are part of the team setting up the offices or working on logistics in advanced of the move" (Hint Hint). Nope. Certainly cannot say that. There's plenty of precedent for moving ahead without a vote, if the overwhelming response in the discussion is positive. But all the more reason to wait till people get back from the distractions of the holidays so they can focus on the conversation here.
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Post by oyani on Dec 14, 2016 15:57:01 GMT
I was just going to suggest that there's no reason why fleeties cannot RP in Hathon--either in an IC context of a recce, as you suggest, or for other non-Fed/non-Starbase related business while we wait for confirmation until after the NY. (I'm leaning more to Norc's suggestion of 'Let's do eet,' but Ger's caution also makes sense in terms of fairness and communal openness.) The biggest issue that I can see is actually getting feet on the ground to RP on this map so establishing an early presence might make the eventual transition easier if the plan proceeds. ETA: I'm referring to HS's comments here, but quotation effects borked for some reason.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
Posts: 38
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Post by Claudius on Dec 14, 2016 16:21:14 GMT
Small spoiler from the test server
While its currently placeholder graphics, you can see there is gonna be a huge expansion in the Alpha Quadrant. Hopefully there is gonna be lots of new thing for us to do as a fleet storywise.
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