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Post by Gremstein on Dec 10, 2014 1:13:59 GMT
I like Vil's idea. While I agree signing up for a forum isn't difficult or time consuming, it should never be mandatory, in my opinion.
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tewha7
Member
You can't be a hero unless you're rising above circumstance.
Posts: 141
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Post by tewha7 on Dec 10, 2014 16:22:28 GMT
Let's be straight here. The third option isn't practical.
Imagine you're a GM. You have a player who wants to participate. It's now your job to make sure they're registered for the forum. This is simply impractical.
The gate must be somewhere i can actually be enforced, like a requirement for a trial period ending. Not months down the line, enforced by every GM.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Dec 10, 2014 22:03:39 GMT
Let's be straight here. The third option isn't practical. Imagine you're a GM. You have a player who wants to participate. It's now your job to make sure they're registered for the forum. This is simply impractical. The gate must be somewhere i can actually be enforced, like a requirement for a trial period ending. Not months down the line, enforced by every GM. This. 100% This.
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Post by Chris Winters on Dec 10, 2014 22:43:16 GMT
Hmmyes, good point.
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 11, 2014 5:35:27 GMT
As for my own stance on the subject, here's how I see it: I'd like to echo the statements made earlier on how a great many fleets require membership, period, no other option, and this is expected and accepted there. Some of these fleets require forum signup for the privilege of APPLYING to their fleet, with no guarantee of membership. And these aren't all, or even mostly, RP fleets doing this. Grinder fleets, PvE/PvP fleets...add roleplaying and it becomes much more complex. We're a roleplay fleet. As any roleplayer knows, being on the same page with said roleplay, whether it be tabletop or MMO, is important. Without this continuity, roleplay is all but impossible. There has to be a framework upon which the stories can be woven, and without that framework, we are reduced to the shallowest of casual RP, the "BarRP that I have been told so many people wish to avoid. And in order to have that depth of storylines, we need more information than what can be conveyed reasonably in 200-character bites through chat. Our rules, our code of conduct, our roster and channel information...all on the forums. If we tell someone that there is all this information, and they tell us "I don't want to be bothered to read, just tell me"? That strikes me (subjectively perhaps) as selfish entitlement. RP in STO is text based. It's all reading. If someone can't be motivated to read what can be found on the forum, how much effort will they put into roleplay that consists of mostly reading? How much energy, how much creativity? In my experience so far, the few who have refused or resisted the forum have not, generally speaking, contributed much of these things to the fleet, especially considering the majority of those have left the fleet in recent weeks, or otherwise are on the verge of being dropped for inactivity. We have people saying they want something deeper and more meaningful than BarRP We have people who say they're having trouble finding RP in the first place We have people who are trying to run meaningful RP and need a place to store the lore and documentation for this kind of RP. The idea of hearing all of these things, and then saying "Eh, the primary tool for solving these very problems shouldn't be required" is not merely counterproductive in the efforts to solve these problems, it's adding to them. The goal is to solve the problems, not perpetuate and amplify them. I'd like to address some of the comments brought up in the discussion so far. ...I think it should be part of the process, sign up by the end of the 2 week free trial ... I like this idea. And so do a fair number of people who I've talked to, so I think this would be a better option to work with than immediately upon recruitment. We can still strongly recommend it on signup, but not require it until the end of the trial. ... creating a potential barrier for people who might otherwise make excellent fleet members... As a matter of statistics...out of all the recruits we have brought into the fleet in the past year, I am only aware of four who refused to sign up to the forum. Of those four...all have left the fleet, some due to inactivity (not logging in since joining) and - to be uncharacteristically blunt - none of which contributed anything meaningful to the fleet. And as to existing membership, out of 340 characters on the roster, only 33 are not associated with a forum account. A very small percentage, and again, some of which have been inactive to the point where they are on the verge of removal during the next roster cleanout. ... Let the GM of a particular story/ship/event decide if he wants to make sign ups on the forum mandatory for their events. This is already in effect. A GM may require signup if they wish, and all of our current GMs are already doing so. ...Imagine you're a GM. You have a player who wants to participate. It's now your job to make sure they're registered for the forum. This is simply impractical. The gate must be somewhere i can actually be enforced, like a requirement for a trial period ending. Not months down the line, enforced by every GM. My thoughts exactly. The GMs are taking the time and effort to create an enjoyable game session for all the players. The very least the players can do is to do what is necessary to prepare themselves in order to participate. If you're going to play in a tabletop RPG, for example, everyone's expected to at least own the player's guide and dice. A GM who has a half dozen people show up with no books, no dice, and never having read the book even a little bit is now being subjected to far more work than the players have a right to expect. It's the same here, sans dice. Our forum is our player's guide, and an interactive one at that, because a player can voice their thoughts, and even have a say when discussions come up about changes to the rule. And there's my two cents. Hoping it made sense. :-)
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Post by Kal on Dec 11, 2014 8:24:50 GMT
I'm with 12 on this one. I've been a member of enough fleets, supergroups, guilds, clans, and...whatever else, to know that you're likely to put people off if forum membership is mandatory just to look around the group. If we put that off until the end of the Trial Membership, though...well.
As for Vil's idea, I like it in some ways, but as tewha7 said, doing it that way simply creates more work for the GMs. Besides which, we also post non-ship-related events here. Lots of people usually want to get involved with those, but if they don't know they're happening, because they don't check the forums? I know whoever's running the event will usually throw the link out a few dozen times in the week leading up to the event, but as someone said to me a few days ago (Axel, maybe?), they'd been posting the link several times a day in crossover for a week or so, and yet still hours before the event was ready to start, people still had absolutely no idea there was an event.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Chris Winters on Dec 11, 2014 20:12:17 GMT
.. they'd been posting the link several times a day in crossover for a week or so, and yet still hours before the event was ready to start, people still had absolutely no idea there was an event. This reminds me of my speeches I used to give people why forums are mandatory for Exodus crew. Lets look at one. "Behold mmostorytellers.proboards.com/posts/recent2 minutes a day and you're up to speed. On everything Storytellers. That's 15 minutes if you check it once a week. More pressing matters of course you will miss out on if you check it that rarely. Still you can read up on what you missed. You can even set it up to be an RSS feed. Means you get notified on new stuff while you surf. You can even view it on mobile devices. So you can see, read and write from your phone, from anywhere." I think we offer quite a lot of ways and methods for people to be kept in the loop already. If they actively choose not to be in the know however, I'm not acknowledging their lack of knowledge as a problem, no matter how many tears they shed about it. If there's an info on the forums for a week, and someone logs in every day to the game, he can afford the time. It's not our job to read everyone the news in Crossover when they log in. We're not here to entertain people to a degree where they can just lean back and be merry while munching popcorn. This is an interactive community, which means everyone has to put in some action for it to work right. We're not a sitcom that one can just turn on by joining up. Participation is expected. Participation requires action. On a Dungeons and Dragons night, you don't count your little sister standing by the door watching you play as a player either. For us, that little sister is everyone outside the fleet. They're the audience. We're the actors. You join the actors, you start taking action. Before I login to the game, I scan the recent posts page. Works purrrrrfectly for me. Its neither hard to do nor does it hurt. I promise. I've done it myself. Usually I'm done reading up before the game loading screen is done, too. If you bookmark it, it takes 3 mouseclicks and a minute or two. That isn't much to expect from anyone. If you get bored ingame? Why not read up here? By the time you're done, some of your buddies might have logged in, and you get to do stuff with them. Maybe even discuss what you just read, or do something that popped into your head while reading. It's a great creativity tool, and it's most definately not witchcraft. Because it doesn't say "Made by Xivix" anywhere on it. ..so there, this rant took you about as long to read as it usually takes to scan the recent page, ID your favourite topic(s) and read up on them. Not that much, is it? I think we can expect this much effort from new folks.
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Post by starjumpersix on Dec 12, 2014 2:13:02 GMT
Let's be straight here. The third option isn't practical. Imagine you're a GM. You have a player who wants to participate. It's now your job to make sure they're registered for the forum. This is simply impractical. The gate must be somewhere i can actually be enforced, like a requirement for a trial period ending. Not months down the line, enforced by every GM. All it takes is for the GM to post a sign up sheet on the forums. Guy says they want to join in just as the event starts, GM says "Did you sign up on the forums?" Guy says "no." "Too bad Guy. I stated that I wanted signups on the forums." Of course, if the GM doesn't care if the person signed up or not, then it doesn't matter. That's what I meant. It wasn't a complicated thing.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Dec 12, 2014 2:23:30 GMT
Let's be straight here. The third option isn't practical. Imagine you're a GM. You have a player who wants to participate. It's now your job to make sure they're registered for the forum. This is simply impractical. The gate must be somewhere i can actually be enforced, like a requirement for a trial period ending. Not months down the line, enforced by every GM. All it takes is for the GM to post a sign up sheet on the forums. Guy says they want to join in just as the event starts, GM says "Did you sign up on the forums?" Guy says "no." "Too bad Guy. I stated that I wanted signups on the forums." Of course, if the GM doesn't care if the person signed up or not, then it doesn't matter. That's what I meant. It wasn't a complicated thing. All the GM needs to do is more work. Let alone the fact that they are creating stories for others to enjoy that they themselves don't usually even get to really participate in? Oh yeah simple enough.
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Post by Chris Winters on Dec 12, 2014 15:03:25 GMT
..and that quickly, we're back where we started. As soon as "guy" here then pouts and whines to a Pathfinder about how evil the GM is to force him to sign up for something while not being a fleet leader, we're right back where the snake bites its tail. It starts costing more people more time. People complain left and right, and sooner than you know, one fine day we're on the forums, discussing if we want to give our GM's decisions official support by making forums membership part of fleet memership or not. ..wait, this seems familiar.
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 12, 2014 23:12:06 GMT
Just a note here...GMs already have FULL SUPPORT to make it a requirement to sign up for an event or RP ship they are hosting. A GM has ALWAYS had the right to set requirements for an RP they are running. Rehashing this point is not productive. The discussion is whether or not to make it a requirement for new members. Originally, the thought was to make it a prerequisite for joining, but that's shifted to take 12's suggestion into account, where now the discussion is whether or not it should be required by no later than the end of the two week trial.
Let's keep it focused.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Dec 12, 2014 23:38:29 GMT
Just a note here... GMs already have FULL SUPPORT to make it a requirement to sign up for an event or RP ship they are hosting. A GM has ALWAYS had the right to set requirements for an RP they are running. Rehashing this point is not productive. The discussion is whether or not to make it a requirement for new members. Originally, the thought was to make it a prerequisite for joining, but that's shifted to take 12's suggestion into account, where now the discussion is whether or not it should be required by no later than the end of the two week trial. Let's keep it focused. If someone is extremely die hard about not risking their privacy then I say they are more than welcome to not join the Forums and remain a Free Trial Membership indefinitely.
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Flynt
Member
I'm just here for the donuts.
Posts: 222
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Post by Flynt on Dec 13, 2014 2:40:35 GMT
I could support that.
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Post by jaime on Dec 13, 2014 8:53:57 GMT
Have been thinking hard about this topic for a couple of days now....but can't shake the feeling that while pushing the forums is a good idea, ultimately, making it a compulsory thing is not. Largely because sometimes a player's machine can't handle running the game and switching between it and a browser well, an ultimately because...forum based role play has been around pretty much as the internet. We signed up to role play in the game. The forums therefore should serve the game not the other way round, which would become a danger. We already use them very well, with recaps and advertising for upcoming RP as well as general post boards. But I have already seen people complaining about, and insulting, those who don't US the forums.much, without stopping to wonder why they choose not to. Such as wanting to use limited free time to actually play the game rather than read about other people playing it. Or because the damn thing is so uncomfortable to look at. (Really...dark tiny fonts on a black background. It's awful on tablets at low brightness and pretty bad even on a laptop screen. Not everyone ha nice big monitors or technology enhance vision. Good web design means making it readable for as many people as possible on.as many screens as possible. Then you worry about style. An it looks lovely it really does, nicely understated yet on theme. But it is uncomfortable to read for long) Now, a GM can insist on forum use, and an individual can decide if they want to use it...that's one thing. We already insist on new recruits signing up for it in our current recruitment spiel. So...what precisely are we dining to become compulsory here? Sign in to forums x time a week or leave? A refusal to converse about topics in crossover because people can just go read the forum? It's more ....human to converse in real time. That's before I return to using a browser at the same time as the game or readability. (By the way yes I could read crossover chat running the game on my 8 inch tablet. But then I lost my touch screen keyboard and couldn't reply. Doh) So I have to with no....we should US the forums as we have been, and for long info dumps or episode recaps w,as well a suggestions or advertising RP, fine. Final Fantasy XIII was criticised for having too much of its exposition and story hidden away in menu screens and as text. Let's not have that happen to our RP gaming.
As an addendum, I would also hate to see a 'look I have it in writing you signed up for x role play on the forum and now look you aren't joining in' become a source of drama. Forums can b useful tools, but once they become insisted on, they can become red tape or a barrier to equality (as does anything outside of the game really....teamspeak, out of game chat access via mobile...a powerful enough rig to run game well and pop browser up on second screen or in background. Or projected onto a silver screen to read the dark and really tiny fonts...all become a have an have not scenario pretty quick. ) Not everyone is even comfortable using forums (it's not something I enjoy much myself)
So yeah. I suggest focusing on in game organisation an conversation, with the forum backing up an enhancing that. Not making it compulsory so we say things like 'HERP DERP READ THE FORUMS NEWB' in crossover. Which yes, even as humour, I have already seen. It leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth. And adds another layer of control and hierarchy, something we as fleet are proud to avoid except where absolutely necessary.
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Post by jaime on Dec 13, 2014 8:59:19 GMT
And re reading through....see. we already have stratification occurring. Use the forums or remain free trial member forever. Have your rights in the fleet in the game restricted, be publicly labelled, or...do something you are not comfortable doing, something outside of the game, because we wish it and have decided everyone must.
No thank you.
I respect the people with these opinions, and their reasons for having them, but cannot hold faith in that kind of approach.
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Post by Geralyn on Dec 13, 2014 9:56:52 GMT
So...what precisely are we dining to become compulsory here? Sign in to forums x time a week or leave? At no point does the proposal suggest a quota of times per week logging in. We never suggested it, and I for one wouldn't support it. Largely because sometimes a player's machine can't handle running the game and switching between it and a browser well, an ultimately because...forum based role play has been around pretty much as the internet. At no point would people be expected to keep a browser open on the forum at all times. People would not be expected to hover over the forums watching for any changes in real time. As an addendum, I would also hate to see a 'look I have it in writing you signed up for x role play on the forum and now look you aren't joining in' become a source of drama. This isn't even an issue. It's not happening now for those who sign up but don't show, it's not going to happen later. So yeah. I suggest focusing on in game organisation an conversation, with the forum backing up an enhancing that. Not making it compulsory so we say things like 'HERP DERP READ THE FORUMS NEWB' in crossover. Which yes, even as humour, I have already seen. It leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth. And adds another layer of control and hierarchy, something we as fleet are proud to avoid except where absolutely necessary. The uttering of things like "herp derp read the forums" are not acceptable in Crossover. But conversely, if members actually read the important parts of the forum, there wouldn't be such conversations in the first place. And it's not a "layer of control" or "hierarchy". It's a channel of communication. One we need in order to coordinate a fleet this large. And as was said earlier, the number of current members without forum accounts is very small, and only four people who joined in the last year flatly refused. Addendum: As far as the 'look' of the forum, I will see about brightening the font.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
Posts: 38
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Post by Claudius on Dec 13, 2014 10:10:15 GMT
I think its not a bad idea to have people sign up for the forum. I mostly check it once or twice a day. Skimming the forums for any topics that catch my eyes, and checking if I gotten any private messages. Only posting when there is something I want to post about. I don't read the wall of text logs and out of game RP that happens.
Really, no one is being forced to post everyday, X number of times or you get banned. We don't do that. Its just register, and check the boards from time to time, when you got time, and post if you got something you want to voice your concern about.
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Post by Chris Winters on Dec 13, 2014 12:06:31 GMT
Short and simple: Yes, please. Best typo ever! Already happened to a great degree on the pc version. Jaime uses mostly the mobile version, which still uses "dark grey on darkest grey". Strong supporter of aligning that with the pc version, which uses light grey on black nowadays.
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Post by FoxCDN on Jan 6, 2015 2:07:35 GMT
Personally I've always liked the forum being required for the most part. Really like how some guilds/fleets would have people that are interested in joining post a quick blurb about their character and what not then request to go through the invite process. Mind you that's just me
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Post by Geralyn on Jan 28, 2015 0:28:43 GMT
With the holiday season past, I'm going to ask anyone who hasn't weighed in on this discussion to at least peruse this thread and consider all of the things mentioned here. This will be going to fleet vote soon (probably within a week) unless we see a significant pickup in discussion in this thread.
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