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Post by Geralyn on Aug 16, 2015 5:11:41 GMT
On the matter of Borg Abilities and Related Activities
Continuing the series of discussions based on concerns brought to the Pathfinders by members of the fleet, this discussion is one rather highly (and in some cases, impatiently) anticipated. The matter at hand: Should the fleet restrict members from making Borg characters with certain abilities that not only make them overpowered, but are utterly not supported by canon? Likewise, should the fleet restrict members from making characters engaging in Borg-related activities that would not realistically be permitted by authorities? As per every discussion to date, if the fleet votes to enact these restrictions, existing characters will be given reasonable accommodation with a grandfathering clause. And again, since this seems to be forgotten occasionally: This discussion, like every one in this series of discussions, is not the idea or agenda of any of the Pathfinders. These are based on the most frequent topics to be brought to us as a topic of complaint/suggestion/inquiry. And this list of discussions had been finalized late last fall, and are being brought before the fleet one at a time, giving the fleet time to digest and consider what is presented. The abilities and activities in question are as follows: Acquisition of, or research and development of, Borg technology for the purpose of personal "upgrades"Star Trek's position on cybernetics and artificial systems are very specifically limited to the medically necessary, such as Geordi's visor. The realm of "enhancement" and "augmentation" is not one that fits into either the Federation worldview or the Klingon warrior's philosophy, thereby such activity – especially through the use of Borg technology – would not only be frowned upon, but likely to be illegal. Even in STO, what limited use of Borg nanoprobe technology the Federation indulges in solely consists of carefully reverse-engineered technology, not "original equipment" retained or obtained from the Collective. Assimilation capabilityNo liberated Borg in canon has ever retained this ability after liberation. Nor would it be permitted for any member of Starfleet, on ethical grounds and out of concern for security and/or a possible loss of containment. Considering how persistent Borg technology is at subverting non-Borg systems, this ability would be the number 2 target for neutralization in a Borg drone being liberated. Functional Borg subspace transceiverAnd this would be the number one target. Having a transceiver that retains its connection to the Collective is an incredible security and safety risk. And though there are examples of splinter factions such as the Cooperative and the resistance lead by Hugh, none of them are Starfleet, and Starfleet would not risk giving the Borg a way into their most secure systems. Nanite-Induced ImmortalityNot entirely certain where this one comes from, since canon explicitly states that drones only live as long as the species natural lifespan, and preserving it beyond that would be a display of sentimentality that the Borg simply do not have. They can always get more drones, and losing one is like a human losing a hair or dead skin cells. (VOY: "Survival Instinct", "Collective") Note: not an item covered by grandfathering. This will not affect anyone's RP, because neither the players nor the game will be here a century from now."Neutronium" bonesNeutronium is not an alloy or metal. It is degenerate matter, where protons and electrons have been squished together by immense heat and pressure to form neutrons, and the neutrons, normally very far apart, are packed together like marbles in a sock. This substance weighs 2 billion tons per standard teaspoon. Having neutronium bones would result in a gravity well that would suck the individual into a compact, sticky mess. Borg, as per canon, utilize tritanium for the bones of tactical drones.(VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Endgame") Tritanium is hull-metal for starships, and used in their frames. It is the strongest metal Starfleet is able to work with, and anything that would damage tritanium even a little would obliterate everything in a Borg drone that was not tritanium. As such, there is no practical or tactical advantage to using neutronium, even if it were possible. It creates an extreme example of diminishing returns, therefore the Collective would not bother to waste the immense amount of time and resources that would be necessary to use neutronium in drones. Even if it didn't collapse the drone into a gooey meatball...or explode violently. That's right, explode violently. Without the heat and pressures found in the hearts of neutron stars compressing the matter into the state known as degenerate matter...little known fact, neutronium is the single most explosive substance in the universe, bar none, due to its immense density and fairly short half-life. And any amount of neutronium (such as a star below .2 solar masses, according to one analysis) would explode. And yes, I'm aware of both STO and Star Trek itself speaking of neutronium items. The Original Series was made at a time when we as a society did not have the scientific knowledge we do now, nor did the studio have the budge to hire scientific advisers. Based on common sense regarding the laws of physics, the fleet's stance is that this is not actual neutronium, but a trademarked "Neutronium™" brand alloy containing no actual neutronium, like an American Express Platinum card contains no actual platinum, and an STO Gold membership contains no actual gold. Note: not an item covered by grandfathering. It's physically impossible.Prototype/genetically engineered drone, instead of one created through assimilationNot supported in any way, shape or form by any canon or non-canon source. They do not do this. They do not create, they assimilate what they need. And yes, I am aware of the single drone in the Voyager episode "One". That was not the Borg creating a prototype, that was a transporter accident playing merry hell with Seven's nanoprobes, the DNA of a crewman and the Doctor's mobile holoemitter This was neither planned, initiated, or persued by the Collective.. The Borg did not procreate; they added to the Collective's population only by assimilation. (VOY: "Drone") Assimilated infants and juveniles would be placed in maturation chambers until adulthood. (TNG: "Q Who"; VOY: "Collective")Super/enhanced/prototype/augmented nanoprobesUsually the rationalization for immortality or other special abilities. Except the Borg are a hive mind. If there is an upgrade to their nanoprobes, the research would be conducted in the very heart of Borg territory, out of reach, and when (and only when) the technology was deemed ready, the whole collective would have it. Instantly. Having enhanced nanoprobes in a liberated drone that give it abilities the rest of the collective does not display isn't a concept that holds up to analysis. Borg "Queen" charactersYou'd think this was a non-starter, but I've seen half a dozen "lesser" or "demi" Borg Queens, former queens, queens of "smaller collectives" being roleplayed. And several members have asked for clarification on this matter. So here's the clarification: This kind of character is not permitted, is not up for being part of this discussion, and will never be discussed in the future.*****
And that's the list of issues brought before the fleet to discuss. Please address all points in your comments, and remember this is a discussion of issues brought to the Pathfinders by members of the fleet. Comments that involve personal attacks or passive-aggression will be moderated.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 16, 2015 5:39:55 GMT
Don't think much else needs to be said that hasn't been said. I approve.
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Post by greeneagle346 on Aug 16, 2015 9:12:13 GMT
I think the process of de-assimilating someone work get rid of all implants not placed in such a way that removal would be life threatening. And that would eliminate pretty much every ability listed, I believe. Nuke 'zem all!
Aka: I approve of this discussion policy.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
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Post by Claudius on Aug 17, 2015 2:26:07 GMT
I agree with all the points listed so far. So would pretty much just repeat what was said already.
Being allowed to 'upgrade' oneself Ouch... yes this one kinda compares to the is exactly the same as augmentations problems. I would say only if you have a disadvantage to begin with, like.. one eye implant doesn't actually allow you to see, but instead scans things and feeds the info into your brain. Then yes, you should be allowed to upgrade to an eye to normalize you. Remember Seven was all about becoming as human as possible.
Being able to assimilate/make own mini collective No one should be able to assimilate. EVER! You were freed some the collective. Why would you ever force someone else into that slavery? Neither of the player factions allow that.
Tranceivers that work Could only see they would be allowed as something they could get a hint/feel the borg is near. But never communicate with them. And NEVER control them. For plot you can end up being controlled by the borg, and we have to stun you. But nothing powerful as communicate and directly get info from them or tell THEM what to do. Plus if you can get controlled, you are a security risk until that tranceiver is removed, you wouldn't be allowed to serve on a ship.
Immortality As Ger stated, you don't live forever, or are thousands of years old unless the race you originally belong to live that long. What I think Ger didn't mention was immortality in form of nothing can kill you cause you instantly repair any damage done to you. Godmode much? I can accept the nanites can repair you slowly over time, a bit faster than a normal person heals. But not right away.
'Neutronium' bones Even if we looked at how STO makes Neutronium out to be a metal in some cases. You would be very heavy, even a thin 'coating' is so heavy you wouldn't be able to move. And even then it doesn't make you stronger or more resistant to anything, just makes your bones harder to break. You can still get all your other borg parts and tissue blasted away, only leaving a perfectly intact skeleton standing. And don't forget bones are living tissue, they need access to other soft tissues and blood. Your own bones would rot inside the 'coating'.
Unique Drone/Special made Drone Worker, Medical, and Tactical(heavy or otherwise) drones are really the only type of drones that stand out from eachother, and even at that it wasn't that major diffrences between them. Sure we got Locutus of Borg, who are named drones that looked like he was in command. He was still just drones, he was never actually in command(was still the borg hivemind giving orders), and he didn't have special abilities. He was only used for his knowledge and as a scare tactic.
And gonna list these now before people start pointing towards them. Sure, Manus of Borg, Armek of Borg, and Tosk of Borg got special attack powers, but thats only because they are boss fights on the maps they are on. Its only an ingame reason they are like that, as it wouldn't be fun to or challenging to fight a normal Drone that moved in a slow pace and shot a single shot from time to time. And even then with all the powers they got, if they were freed they still wouldn't be allowed to keep those powers.
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Flynt
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I'm just here for the donuts.
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Post by Flynt on Aug 17, 2015 3:00:49 GMT
And again, since this seems to be forgotten occasionally: This discussion, like every one in this series of discussions, is not the idea or agenda of any of the Pathfinders. These are based on the most frequent topics to be brought to us as a topic of complaint/suggestion/inquiry. And this list of discussions had been finalized late last fall, and are being brought before the fleet one at a time, giving the fleet time to digest and consider what is presented. My impression is not only that the topics in this discussion were submitted, but also the suggestions as to how each situation worked and what would and wouldn't be reasonable to happen further. In other words, it's not just the Pathfinders saying some of these are excessive, it's fellow members. One topic not mentioned so far: RegressionPlayers have occasionally RPed scenarios where the liberation process was undone in some way. For example, the nanites still present get corrupted or reactivated in someway, perhaps by close contact with an assimilated borg, a dormant implant that couldn't be removed, even exhaustion without proper sleep/regeneration. I'd be interested to see whether folks thought this was plausible.
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Post by Geralyn on Aug 17, 2015 3:43:02 GMT
My impression is not only that the topics in this discussion were submitted, but also the suggestions as to how each situation worked and what would and wouldn't be reasonable to happen further. In other words, it's not just the Pathfinders saying some of these are excessive, it's fellow members. One topic not mentioned so far: RegressionPlayers have occasionally RPed scenarios where the liberation process was undone in some way. For example, the nanites still present get corrupted or reactivated in someway, perhaps by close contact with an assimilated borg, a dormant implant that couldn't be removed, even exhaustion without proper sleep/regeneration. I'd be interested to see whether folks thought this was plausible. Your impression is actually specifically accurate. A great many people have cited them as excessive as well the reasonability (or lack thereof) for each. On the topic of regression, (and one not brought up before, so I'm glad you did) I don't see any particular reason to prohibit temporary regression for the purpose of an RP story. In fact, as I type this, it occurs to me that it's a reasonably expected story concept in canon. It happened all the time with Seven of Nine, it made for some interesting stories, and then the character did what was necessary to overcome the situation. Those stories were done from the stance that leaving such things intact was, in fact, a bad idea, and people acted accordingly.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 17, 2015 4:30:01 GMT
And again, since this seems to be forgotten occasionally: This discussion, like every one in this series of discussions, is not the idea or agenda of any of the Pathfinders. These are based on the most frequent topics to be brought to us as a topic of complaint/suggestion/inquiry. And this list of discussions had been finalized late last fall, and are being brought before the fleet one at a time, giving the fleet time to digest and consider what is presented. My impression is not only that the topics in this discussion were submitted, but also the suggestions as to how each situation worked and what would and wouldn't be reasonable to happen further. In other words, it's not just the Pathfinders saying some of these are excessive, it's fellow members. One topic not mentioned so far: RegressionPlayers have occasionally RPed scenarios where the liberation process was undone in some way. For example, the nanites still present get corrupted or reactivated in someway, perhaps by close contact with an assimilated borg, a dormant implant that couldn't be removed, even exhaustion without proper sleep/regeneration. I'd be interested to see whether folks thought this was plausible. I wouldn't go so far to say that the liberation process could be "undone" in that sense. Once that link is severed, great lengths are taken to make sure it can't be re-established. Really the only way to do it is normal assimilation/re-assimilation. As Geralyn said, however, complications can arise that set things back. A malfunctioning implant, tubes or such getting damaged and pressing on nerves/blood vessels just to name a few. Things like that can be both physically and mentally taxing.
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asd886
Member
Hey, dude.
Posts: 34
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Post by asd886 on Aug 18, 2015 2:02:49 GMT
On the matter of Borg Abilities and Related Activities
Continuing the series of discussions based on concerns brought to the Pathfinders by members of the fleet, this discussion is one rather highly (and in some cases, impatiently) anticipated. The matter at hand: Should the fleet restrict members from making Borg characters with certain abilities that not only make them overpowered, but are utterly not supported by canon? Likewise, should the fleet restrict members from making characters engaging in Borg-related activities that would not realistically be permitted by authorities?Overall, I approve. However, I wouldn't mind a bit more chat about the point made about borg-related activities. Could this mean things like carrying out attacks on the Collective? If so, I'm a little squeamish on the idea of restricting that sort of thing for people. Clarification appreciated whenever its available :)
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Post by Geralyn on Aug 18, 2015 2:15:56 GMT
On the matter of Borg Abilities and Related Activities
Continuing the series of discussions based on concerns brought to the Pathfinders by members of the fleet, this discussion is one rather highly (and in some cases, impatiently) anticipated. The matter at hand: Should the fleet restrict members from making Borg characters with certain abilities that not only make them overpowered, but are utterly not supported by canon? Likewise, should the fleet restrict members from making characters engaging in Borg-related activities that would not realistically be permitted by authorities?Overall, I approve. However, I wouldn't mind a bit more chat about the point made about borg-related activities. Could this mean things like carrying out attacks on the Collective? If so, I'm a little squeamish on the idea of restricting that sort of thing for people. Clarification appreciated whenever its available The Borg-related abilities and activities up for discussion for restriction are the ones listed specifically, and no others. Restricting rather obvious RP story arcs and ideas like attacking the Collective would serve no valid purpose, and therefore would not be considered.
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Post by hszmv on Aug 18, 2015 2:17:50 GMT
This was meant as a discussion for playing liberated both characters. They have in the past been made to be special snowflake by players for various reasons, mostly because being a cyborg lends to having cool superpowers.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 18, 2015 3:20:05 GMT
On the matter of Borg Abilities and Related Activities
Continuing the series of discussions based on concerns brought to the Pathfinders by members of the fleet, this discussion is one rather highly (and in some cases, impatiently) anticipated. The matter at hand: Should the fleet restrict members from making Borg characters with certain abilities that not only make them overpowered, but are utterly not supported by canon? Likewise, should the fleet restrict members from making characters engaging in Borg-related activities that would not realistically be permitted by authorities?Overall, I approve. However, I wouldn't mind a bit more chat about the point made about borg-related activities. Could this mean things like carrying out attacks on the Collective? If so, I'm a little squeamish on the idea of restricting that sort of thing for people. Clarification appreciated whenever its available It's not really about people going out and fighting the borg, although stupidity can occur there as well. Like HS said, it's more about the people thinking that being Liberated Borg means a whole bunch of special powers as opposed to an avenue for certain styles of Roleplay and scenarios.
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Post by starjumpersix on Aug 18, 2015 4:10:15 GMT
I cannot like this thread enough.
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Post by vensarra on Aug 18, 2015 5:28:38 GMT
One big thing these snowflake players tend to forget about playing a Liberated Borg.
They're victims. And every implant, every scar, every metal bit in their flesh is a constant reminder of the time in their lives they were made a victim, along with literally trillions of others.
Some handle recovery well, some poorly, but that's the base state from which they'd start from. Yes, they'd have some advantages that others don't, but the price of it would be severely hefty.
Another thing, in my view? The Collective, as a whole, tends to be quite practical about upgrading. I don't see, for example, tactical drones being super-special, but simply as they were individuals or species that could handle more extensive implants than the typical ones. And spending tons of resources to bring every drone to tactical-level would be a waste. They'd only do so if there was a pressing need.
So they wouldn't bother building super-drones until they come at, say, the Undine. But it's much, much easier to build weapons to handle such things than to gene-engineer a drone to match an Undine. Or, keeping with their typical operations, just figure out how to assimilate an Undine.
So yes. In short: See snowflakes, bring flamethrower.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 18, 2015 10:56:33 GMT
Another thing that occured to me. What, if any, application does this have to ships that have straight or "controlled" borg tech left behind after assimilation that "Couldn't be removed" or "makes the ship more efficient, so we kept it"? Just something I thought would be related to the topic.
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Post by Geralyn on Aug 18, 2015 11:32:59 GMT
Another thing that occured to me. What, if any, application does this have to ships that have straight or "controlled" borg tech left behind after assimilation that "Couldn't be removed" or "makes the ship more efficient, so we kept it"? Just something I thought would be related to the topic. At this time, it has no bearing on ships, only characters. Ships are a general topic coming up later in the series of discussions.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 18, 2015 12:07:14 GMT
Another thing that occured to me. What, if any, application does this have to ships that have straight or "controlled" borg tech left behind after assimilation that "Couldn't be removed" or "makes the ship more efficient, so we kept it"? Just something I thought would be related to the topic. At this time, it has no bearing on ships, only characters. Ships are a general topic coming up later in the series of discussions. Fair enough, just occured to me to ask.
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Post by ifriedrich on Aug 18, 2015 17:27:48 GMT
This discussion focuses on Federation, Klingon, or Republic liberated Borg, but if someone wanted to RP a member of the Borg Cooperative or something, would that be okay? I can see that as an avenue for being a "cool cyborg" that still fits in the canon, but I imagine opportunity for RP would necessarily be somewhat limited.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Aug 19, 2015 1:36:19 GMT
I think at best that would be a case by case, if at all. Feel free to correct me, but here is how I see it.
The cooperative is made up of drones disconnected from the Collective. They have gone from one hivemind to another, and still operate much in the same way as the collective... minus the unpleasantness. To see a drone from the cooperative on their own is highly unlikely.
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Flynt
Member
I'm just here for the donuts.
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Post by Flynt on Aug 19, 2015 1:56:05 GMT
Another thing that occured to me. What, if any, application does this have to ships that have straight or "controlled" borg tech left behind after assimilation that "Couldn't be removed" or "makes the ship more efficient, so we kept it"? Just something I thought would be related to the topic. See "Ejected science lab," for practical response.
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Post by Geralyn on Aug 19, 2015 4:19:38 GMT
This discussion focuses on Federation, Klingon, or Republic liberated Borg, but if someone wanted to RP a member of the Borg Cooperative or something, would that be okay? I can see that as an avenue for being a "cool cyborg" that still fits in the canon, but I imagine opportunity for RP would necessarily be somewhat limited. As to the "cool cyborg" angle...a liberated drone or a drone from Hugh's faction already covers this angle. Remember, this is not a call for banning Borg characters. This is specifically a proposal by fleet members to restrict certain Borg abilities and Borg-related activities. Whether a liberated drone from the Collective, a member of Hugh's faction, or even in the (unlikely) event of a former member of the Cooperative, the proposal would restrict any such character from these abilities and activities. Speaking of the latter, the Cooperative is a very isolated mini-Collective, a hive mind with no individual thought, and there was no telling how much of a danger it could present in future. (VOY: "Unity") It was also stated that they had no starship, and therefore no way for individuals to make their way to our neck of the woods. Considering the Cooperative was presented as a "benevolent Collective" with a very small number, it wouldn't be likely that individuals would want to depart or have the means to do so if they did.
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