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Post by Chris Winters on Nov 18, 2016 21:51:50 GMT
Hello Tellers, Tellerinas and Tellarites alike. I have something that involves all of you. Please read this and pleaseĀ² reply. After yet another lengthy discussion of this matter ingame with yet another bunch of fleetmates, I finally decided to write something up. It probably will not be worded superbly, since I'm at my secondary language here, but beer with me. No really, get a beer or something. Not gonna be exactly short. Maybe favourite and read up later. I'm also getting rather angry during this topic as I am partly at fault as well, so fair warning ahead, this is NOT a rant against any specific person whatsoever, even if some will not like my accusatory tone. I feel it is needed because of the severity and urgency of the matter at hand. The matter being our fleet. So what am I angry at? I'm looking at the state of the fleet at present, and up until now. And in the other window sits the fleet charter. And I'm in the middle just shaking my head in frustration and anger about how we all managed to dropped the ball this hard. Actually, this is a nice visualization, let's use that in practice.. one fleet charter, coming up! To be a fleet where people gather to enjoy roleplaying. [...] Though we understand some rules and structure are necessary, we also understand that structure does not have to create barriers to the primary intent of our fleet. And we believe an unnecessarily complex structure, or unnecessarily large number of rules or regulations, would be such a barrier. [...] We strive for a balance of structure and creativity, and we seek to welcome any who would share this goal with us. [...] The Storytellers are primarily a democratic organization, where significant or sweeping changes are voted upon by the entire fleet, and decided by the majority. On the rare occasions where a vote does not decide an issue, only then will the Pathfinders step in to make a decision.
| So.. yes, we do this. That's why we're here.
For the past year-or-so, we have seen many new rules, regulations, restrictions and so on.. have we forgotten this? I sure hope not, but it damn well looks like it.
Here is a key piece. Balance. The thing I miss most is balance. And Action.
This. So much this. When was the last vote? Oh, right. IF we wanted to join our current armada. That was about, if not over, a year ago. Everything else was decided backstage without fleet votes or opinions or anything we agreed on here. This is not democratic. At all.
| Ranks, as other fleets know them, do not exist in the Storytellers. There is no tiered structure, no 'chain of command' where each tier has authority over the ones below.
| Please, for the love of all, why did we abandon this?
| Our ranks instead represent roles within our fleet, indicating what contributions a player has agreed to make for his fellow fleet members. [...] Some roles do come with additional responsibilities.
| ..yyyes. Let us jump out of the frame right here. Because this is definately not what we are doing.
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If you agree to take up a responsibility, we all can expect you to take it on. If you want to contribute, we want you to do that. Let us look at what types of jobs (and how many) we have, what they are supposed to do, and what the status is lately (being one year or so): Roleplayers (tons possible) Supposed to roleplay, shocker. We got a couple of those, good. Could be more though. Way more, actually. Narrator aka GM (3-6+) Supposed to lead RP events, scheduled RP and the like. They come up with the plots. Miller, Norc and Spots are active.. nobody for IC fleet or IC Starbase though, which are the most important mingling points we once had. Deserted. First empty chairs. Important chairs as well. We cannot expect Trials to join RP ships right away without adjusting in. Mentor aka Recruiter and Mentor (2-4) Roam the wilderness looking for new recruits, get them in here, and actively teach them what we do, how we do, and how they could and should not do. Well.. we got Norc and many empty seats. He did teach, but that leaves nobody recruiting. Work is piling up and not getting done. Guardian (2-4) Enforce the few(!) rules we (should only) have, admin chat - and possibly forums, website, calendar, technical stuff. Well, Theo and Kiso do show up now and then still. I would have to lie to say I saw them do this, though. This task was entirely done by Pathfinders for the past 2 years but was separated from that job initially to distribute all the work and the power this gives. Not acceptable! All empty seats! Work is piling up and not getting done. Mediator (2-4) The go-to-guys for fleetmates when they feel anything at all is not right. They listen, solve, and report to the Pathfinders about what is going on, so issues can be handled by a fleet vote or other more general means if necessary. We have none of these anymore!!! Unacceptable! Work is piling up and not getting done. Fleetmates have nobody to talk to if they don't want to bother "the top brass" with their worries. Pathfinders stay unaware of broken things that need fixing. Pathfinder (Always exactly 3) "This number was selected for specific reasons. Firstly, more than one leader means no one person contains all of the power, Secondly, an odd number, so if there is a disagreement among Pathfinders there will not be a tie/deadlock on important decisions. And lastly, three being the smallest number that meets the first two requirements, so when the Pathfinders are called upon to discuss or arbitrate an issue, the process is not bogged down by attempting to coordinate schedules with too many people. [...] While the fleet is a democracy, and everyone has a voice, the Pathfinders sit as the emergency decision makers." ..and in light of the recent Armada stuff, IMO they should also be representatives. Or we could build an Ambassador job for that. Geralyn, while mostly absent, is the only Pathfinder people really see. HS is overwhelmingly unable to perform this task because of his schedule, and has been for very, very long. Kal has left the game so long ago that I had to explain to people that he indeed does exist.. somewhere. Work is piling up and not getting done. Jobs are not held by active personnel, volunteers get turned down regularly. --Deep Breath (AKA TLDR)--I'll put it plainly, this cannot continue like this. WE cannot continue like this. The fleet is crippled. The fleet charter says it best, and it was designed by the best we have. If this fleet wants to grow, or even keep steady, there are jobs that need doing. Seats in need of active personnel taking care of them regularly and reliably while working together as a collective unit. Did I just say active? Yes. Active - in my book - does NOT mean popping your head into the office once a week or twice for an hour. Active means you are actually ingame for multiple hours a week so that any and all fleetmates are able to actually come across or run into you and talk to you in person. All of these positions come with responsibilities, and I'll say it, those have not been fulfilled from Mentor upwards during the past year-and-then-some. At all. Or we wouldn't be staring at a bunch of empty seats and a mountain of work. Many of you have already told me that they would totally take care of this or that job. You guys are awesome. So here comes my appeal to the Pathfinders and all of you.Please, in the name of the charter, and the continuation (and growth?) of this amazing fleet: Go around the horn. See for yourself the work that needs to be done to get more members, noobs taught, procedures reduced and fixed. Ask the people holding positions but - due to time issues, family issues, computer issues, whatever reason - are not actively doing the job and regularly seen ingame doing it.. to step down already. We still barely have enough people to get this rolling again, and they're willing! Please, if you hold a job in this fleet, ask yourself "Can I afford to put in the time/effort to fix this?" If not, offer to step aside. Nobody will think less of you. In fact, I'd rather see a job posting be frequently refilled by differrent people - and the job getting done, than see it nailed to the back of somebody who is for whatever reason not able to lift it, locking volunteers out of stepping up to help. Kudos for anybody willing to vacate the office to let someone with more time / more energy / more dedication take over. Doublekudos for those who are willing to tag in and take the advice of their predecessors to heart to be at their best. I appreciate every bit of work you all put in in the past. I respect you all for that. But we have to put in more. Now. Please, let us sit down together and fix this, before we break the amazing thing created all those years ago by us. While we still can. I know you want to. So go ahead and say you too want to get this ball rolling again. Or scold me. Whatever tickles your fancy. I'm right here and want to help the fleet back up. I'll listen. Cheers, Chris
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Post by alexwh on Nov 18, 2016 22:13:45 GMT
Hello tellers,
I've been with this fleet now since march this year so quite the new player and I've been noticing the same problems Chris has pointed out in his post. I believe it would help this fleet a whole lot if we take action. I'm also an active player, I log on almost every day for several hours so I would also like to offer help. Maybe there's something more I could do for this fleet. thanks for making this post, Chris.
Alex
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Post by Christopher Stryker on Nov 18, 2016 22:37:07 GMT
I would also like to express my thanks to Chris for bringing this up. It is obvious that you have a great deal of passion for this subject and, more importantly, for this Fleet as a whole. Anyone can see that there is not an element of pointless rivalry or unnecessary retribution in what you say.
May I start by countering one of your points with a point of my own? I believe that we must always understand that Real Life should always take precedence. That being said, I can understand that there are reasons that an extended absence should cause someone to realize the need to step down.
As a member of the most prevalent subgroup, a Roleplayer, I have to say that there are still good things about this Fleet. I think that there is a lot of freedom in this role that you might not find somewhere else. I think, however, that from my perspective, that usually translates to a requirement to work out among ourselves where to find RP opportunities outside of the scheduled RP Ships. I think that a couple of Narrators have done a great job of fostering Ship RP outside of the normal Episode format, or created a few interesting Random Runabouts. The problem, of course, is that a majority of us may have some question about our ability or, indeed, our responsibility for coming up with these scenarios on our own. Not all of us benefit from the creative talent that our Narrators demonstrate each week. At the same time, nor should we continue to tap that wealth of their creative energy until it runs dry.
The tangent I managed to veer off on came from the point I would also like to make about how in touch some of us are with the problems that have arisen. I know that, personally, I am used to the interactions I am a part of. I don't think I'm as aware of the other, grander situations that are going on which have caused such a passionate response from our original Author. This may only further prove his point, I think.
I cannot see any reason why a more dedicated effort to tap into the resources of willing volunteers could do any harm whatsoever. I cannot see why anyone would wish to disagree with Chris about the fact that we all want what is best for this Fleet. Thank you for your time, Chris, and thank you for your concern for this Group that we all call home.
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Post by Chris Winters on Nov 18, 2016 23:15:19 GMT
Actually, you're not countering me there. RL always comes first - from our point of view. From the fleet view tho, RL interference is detrimental - So yes, if you see you can't take care of the fleet job for a while, I'd entirely respect you stepping aside until you return, no matter who you are or which job you have. That is awesome, that keeps things moving in here, that way everyone can still do their part instead of twiddling thumbs until you return. Very productive. And hey, it might be more fun to do something differrent when you come back. Say switch from Guardian to Mentor. Keeps stuff fresh and exciting. Maybe you're even better at that and didn't even know it? Nobody expects you to take on any of those positions for any length of time. You can put in some work now? Grab an open seat and come help out while you can. Everyone will be so glad to have the help.
It sounds easy, but that might be because it is.
Thanks for your replies so far, I hope we get some more views and thoughts together.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
Posts: 38
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Post by Claudius on Nov 19, 2016 0:02:11 GMT
Been in this fleet for a long time. And I kinda agree that a slight update to the fleetcharter in some areas are needed.
Lets take a look at Rules? Yeah, we got some BIG rules in the fleet now. Even if they aren't hard to follow, the charter could/should be updated to reflect that.
We used to have only a few rules, and mostly ran the fleet on a more honor/trust system. But experience showed us that didn't work as the fleet grew bigger. We really needed some more rules.
So... Lets take character creation rules as an example. Before we put in rules on this, more and more people had been exploiting the trust we had in they wouldn't go crazy special-snowflake, because there wasn't a direct rule against it. So over time we became forced to add more and more rules instead of just the guidelines and suggestions we asked people to look at.
And I can say I am really happy with that bit of evolution in our fleet. I really love I don't have to see ICly 18 year old undine/human/borg/orion/hologram hybrid, frontline starfleet admirals, flying alien dreadnought ships what not anymore.
Simply put, there wasn't rules on this before because we wanted people to make characters freely and feel a little bit unique. Hence why we asked people to just follow guidelines and such. But a lot of people ignored the guideline requests and went full special-snowflake. We took votes and then we ended up with rules on that. BUT those rules still follow the original intend we had in the fleet. Those rules still allow people to be unique. Think the only one that didn't go to a vote, was the Age limits, but that was overwhelmingly in favor (Save for one or two people).
Anyway the rest of the problems you pointed out, I gotta agree on some parts.
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Post by Geralyn on Nov 19, 2016 0:26:45 GMT
So let's address this: "For the past year-or-so, we have seen many new rules, regulations, restrictions and so on.. have we forgotten this? I sure hope not, but it damn well looks like it."
"That was about, if not over, a year ago. Everything else was decided backstage without fleet votes or opinions or anything we agreed on here. This is not democratic. At all."
To put this plainly as possible - horseshit. There have been four new rules, voted upon by the entire fleet, and I'll point out that they were agreed upon overwhelmingly by the fleet. Your implication that they were forced upon the fleet by unilateral decision of a Pathfinder is false and misleading. And I do not accept the characterization of three or four rules as "a lot", especially considering the overwhelming support for (and relief at) their implementation. I don't know what things were decided "backstage" but I suggest you re-read the archives of General Discussion and the current General Discussion board. Fleet age/rank minimums, the rank cap, the mandatory forum membership, and the restriction of Borg abilities are the only new rules, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them were discussed with the fleet. Without exception. Narrators: Number: No set limit. We have constantly been putting people into this role, only to see them not actually GM anything at all, and ultimately fall out of RP entirely, with the exception of Spots, to some extent Arbriel, and recently Miller. I don't know why people don't stay in this role very long, or how to encourage more people to try taking on the role. And other than the few rules we have, Narrators have not been interfered with by the Pathfinders in their storytelling. Mentors: Number: No set limit, ideally 4 active. This one also puzzles me, in that we will get someone into the role, and shortly thereafter they fade away. They get distracted by other games or real life, or they get tired of the game, and they don't notify anyone that they aren't going to continue in the role. Guardians: Theo is the only Guardian. (If you looked at the fleet resource guide, you would see Kiso is not one of them.) And this role has been under discussion, and had been planned on being brought before the fleet to decide. Our remaining Guardian himself has suggested that the role is now obsolete, because at the time it was created, the channels were public, and it was a bit chaotic at times. That, and most of the rules weren't in writing where people could refer to them. Theo suggested to me to consider sunsetting the role, but we haven't come up with a suitable role to replace it with in the hierarchy. And because of this, there IS no "work piling up". There's nothing really left for this role, and Theo was the first to propose this. And though I resisted the idea initially, discussion since then has made me realize we need to find something else to put in this rank, if anything. Mediators: Every single person we have ever put in this role has either faded away, burned out on the game, or been ignored by the fleet (Yes, ignored. Tewha7 was a Mediator, and nobody came to her for anything, but everyone would go to the Mentors, contributing to their burnout.) I honestly don't know what to do with this one at all. Pathfinder: As to me being "largely absent"? A blatant falsehood, and I'm calling you out on this one. I am in the game EVERY SINGLE DAY, for HOURS every day. Just because it's not when you're on, or because we don't directly interact, is a meaningless metric. Check through the events log in the fleet roster, you'll see notations for game progression for Logica. Kal did not "leave the game", he had a PC die on him, and we've told people about that, and nobody seems to remember. And he's been back in game since the acquisition of a new one. H.S. ... I'll admit I don't know what's going on with him. RL seems to have overwhelmed him, and I'm going to see if I can get in touch with him to get some kind of resolution here. You want to help fix things? I'm all for it. What we need isn't even all that complicated. What we don't need is statements that are contrary to the facts available. Here's what we need: Narrators: We don't have enough people willing/able to GM events. We had people step up often, with grand ideas, then fade away after running only a few sessions, or none at all. We need people willing to do this regularly. And not just the RP ships, but at any time. I know Spots has made it known she's available to do this, but like the Mediators, people have not availed themselves of this offer. If people want a Narrator to run something, it doesn't hurt for people to ask them. Mentors: This is the other big issue. Not only do we need active Mentors, we need people to remember that Mentors are not the people to go to if there's a problem with a fleet member. This was cited by a lot of former members as the reason they burned out - people constantly coming to them over "this person did this to me", "that person is doing things they shouldn't do", etc. That's not their job, it never was, and should not be pushed on them. Guardians: This one's coming up for discussion, very soon. And like anything major, it will be put to the fleet for a vote. And it may mean the role is sunsetted, with or without something to replace it. If we're going to replace it, though, it has to be with something that will actually benefit the fleet. If there are any volunteers to step up to the roles of Narrator or Mentor, I'd like to hear about it. The Guardian discussion will be posted soon. And I'm going to try to find out what's going on with HS. Been in this fleet for a long time. And I kinda agree that a slight update to the fleetcharter in some areas are needed.
Lets take a look at Rules? Yeah, we got some BIG rules in the fleet now. Even if they aren't hard to follow, the charter could/should be updated to reflect that. Charters are for a declaration of purpose, and not ideally for documentation of rules or guidelines. The rules were separated into a separate document to help reduce clutter in the charter itself. Rules are found here: mmostorytellers.proboards.com/thread/499/rules-engagement
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Post by Kal on Nov 19, 2016 1:06:13 GMT
Whilst it's true I was forced to take an unexpected absence for a while due to the only available computer literally falling apart, I've actually been back for quite some time. You might ask why I haven't made myself particularly noticed in Crossover in that time. You might also be asking why I haven't shared my recipe for the perfect poundcake. Well, the answer to both is that I'm not really hugely enthusiastic about socializing with people that I don't already know.
'But Kal, if you never socialize with people you don't know, how do you meet--'. I know. I'm a mystery, even unto myself. Those who know me outside of the game know it's been...a pretty rough year for me as far as medical news goes. I'll spare you the details, but needless to say that it's affected my concentration, and for that I'm sorry.
I've been trying to keep involved as best as I can behind the scenes, and was trying to do so even when my laptop exploded, working with Geralyn on fleet developments and on trying to move us forwards one way or another. You're right, I should probably be more visible, and I'm willing to try and work on that. If I end up being unable to get past it, then yes, I'll step aside.
...No, I've run out of things to say. Sorry, I suppose?
Carry on.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
Posts: 38
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Post by Claudius on Nov 19, 2016 1:17:23 GMT
Didn't say we should add the rules to the charter XD Just meant, point out we got more than a few tiny rules. But I see your point if its to help reduce clutter.
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Post by Chris Winters on Nov 19, 2016 2:07:49 GMT
To keep it shorter and reader friendly: Yes, we need to fill the roles, that's what I said.
Starts with admitting that. Has been an issue for a long, long time without being admitted or anybody asking for help on that matter publicly until today. Offhand I can name three volunteers who got turned down because "we got this, nobody is needed" quite some months ago. Thanks for agreeing now.
Narrators Nobody took care of the "we have no IC Fleet Admiral/Captain/Personnel" issue yet. Its been like a year. (With a brief 1-day-exception to free the base from Terrans, but that was.. yeah.) Miller started recrewing the Starbase, it came to some sort of a standstill. Arb made a new ship, crewed it, ran sessions, the full program. Norc did the same. I see neither ship represented in here to be able to coordinate their efforts, as a result Foundation seems to have fallen apart already due to coordination issues. To me this looks like they need help from some sort of coordinator. Other things looks a lot like a Pathfinder should have said "Well if you're not doing your agreed-upon job, I'm sorry, I have to ask around for a successor" a long time ago, and done just that. Its not personal.
Mentors Same story. Does not show up, does not bother to step down? Replace. That is not a hostile act, that is what's simply necessary. RL can be somewhat unpleasant so you can't take the time to come in here and notify everyone. If I were gone for like three months and came back to find nobody covered for me or picked up the slack, I'd be shouting in rage at it. I'd expect to find myself at Roleplayer or if longer, even fleetless. But to find the work taken care of and continued. Again, somebody should have coordinated that to happen.
Mediators I did come up to Tewha multiple times to get told "I don't feel like I can do this job, better go ask somebody else" at first. Also, she has been gone for a seriously long time. Poking your head in every 3 months is not actively being available. Nobody bothered to find replacements or ask the people if they feel up to the task, even. Norc has been a great inofficial mediator thus far, picking up the slack. I'm sure his expertise can help.
Pathfinders Guys, seriously. You are expected to be Fleet Representatives. The least someone could do when going away is say for how long and maybe secure a successor, and Kal you know I like you to bits, but damn, the very least you could do is actually say hi to the fleet you're supposed to be leading and declaring you're back in action and happy to help out with shenannigans again? Come on. Still, with alternating shifts (Oktober being ingame from midnight to morning, November from evening to midnight), actually you are the one of three I've heard and seen the most of. You I saw in the Armada meeting once, and once more via chat program peeking in. HS.. I think once, briefly. Kal I didn't see at all. You three have been exceptionally good at not making public appearances 2016, seen from this chair. And apparrently, too busy to adress these things people have been noticing and worrying about for many months now. Something isn't quite right there either, any way I turn it. Do not try to tell me that it took you months to sit in silence about Theo seeing no use in being a Guardian now. It doesn't take much time. This post up there I wrote up in like 15 minutes, and yes its a bloody rant from someone who is tired of getting asked why there's a meeting about the color of the sails while the lower deck has been taking water for two days now and I'm okay with it being inaccurate because that's stuff that actually did come up in conversation and worries me (and others?). Its good to see it adressed. People get concerned when the focus hasnt been day to day operations for a long, long time. Why don't we plug the leaks first?
Which circles us back to the Guardians.. repeating myself was intentional in this post. Did you notice me mentioning an Armada-Ambassador, Rule enforcer and chat + forum + tech admin in post 1, and some coordinator in here quite often? There's work, and a rank that as you say has nothing to do. Although seeing to it that channel invites happen, rules get upheld and things like that would be a thing that doesn't need active action often - and given to people who seldomly are present, surely end up as "there was nothing to do" in the end because they might have missed the times they could have been of help. At the very least, Guardians have always had the "policeman aura" when setting someone straight, something a Narrator or Mediator would maybe not be able to use without screwing up trust in their main task. Most everyone I talked to lately just "ugh"s at the mention of the forums and comments how overcomplexified they are and how you can't find anything or how they're not sure where to put what. People want help. Why not make them our "coordination, techsupport and rulebook" desks, then? Even still kinda fits the title. Maybe they also like Armada shenannigans, maybe we need to find dedicated folks for that. Perhaps the new mediators would like to armada. And they could help you three out here and there if bored. Either way.. possibilities.
I know you only got two hands, Ger. I'm not saying do it alone. I'm not saying do it overnight. I'm saying ask for help. So many, me included, are offering. More hands = lighter load = better coordination = things run faster on their own. Heck, if it helps, we could even rotate jobs on a weekly/monthly/whatever basis to prevent burnouts. Our slow reaction time to anything is hurting us severely. Let's change that.
So far I see 3 volunteers out of 4 posters. Impressive. Keep it coming.
PS: I don't think thats the issue, Kal. I don't expect you to be like a paparazzi. Just, you know.. the basics would be cool? Like a "Hullo, I iz back, come talk to me if you need help."
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Post by Geralyn on Nov 19, 2016 4:30:34 GMT
The last time we got anyone volunteering was a considerable ago (Iām thinking itās been more than a year), and we did promote several people. Who promptly failed to do their job and most were dropped due to inactivity. So yes, we do remove people who arenāt doing their jobs. And itās not personal either. As far as the fleet Admiral is concerned, that does NOT fall under Narrator, or any other OOC role, period. That was specifically designed to be an IC role ONLY. And Iām personally of the opinion the post should be scrapped. The first two failed spectacularly, and the current one largely burned out because people kept approaching him about OOC matters when the position was specifically IC only and people were told not to approach him for anything OOC. Nobody listened...and a lot of what people were complaining to him about were the very things we wound up making the new rules for, but by then the burnout had already set in. People couldnāt grasp the post was intended to be IC and specifically kept separate from OOC authority, and the intention failed. As far as Miller doing the Starbase, last I spoke to him I asked for an update to who the new staff would be. I havenāt heard back about that. But if a Narrator drops a story or RP, itās not like they can be ordered to pick it back up. Thatās not how we work. Arbriel did create a new RP ship, but according to his post in Crossover, it was being put on hiatus due to attendance issues, not ācoordinationā issues. (Specifially, on November 4th, at 3:22pm EST: āMaster_Arbriel: It's unlikely there's a Foundation tomorrow, no one came last week and so for now I'm putting it on hiatus until a later dateā). And coordination of a GMās RP is the GMās job. Thatās what they DO, along with promoting it in order to gain new crew. As to attendance issuesā¦we can not mandate people āmustā show up, if they lose interest or if RL causes them to be unable to attend, thatās what the Casting Call thread is for. To find new members. And if a GM is discouraged by lack of attendance to the point of putting their RP on hiatusā¦again, we canāt just order them to get back to it. As far as ānot being representedā in the forumā¦what does that even mean? Foundation got a sub-board in the forum, ( found here) at Arbrielās request, just like every RP ship before it. Andā¦nobodyās used it. Not even to announce the RP ship's hiatus status. And they know itās there, I personally informed Arbriel of the creation of it. And Tewha was the last person in the mediator position, but also hasnāt been in the role for some time. But I never heard from her ā or from you ā that a mediator was saying this, else it would have been addressed then and there. And not for nothing, yes, you did make your post about the Guardian in 15 minutesāa hasty post that didnāt take into account the entire issue, which is that we have been discussing something that needed to be thoroughly considered before proposing it. Weāre talking an actual change of the CHARTER, something that hasnāt been done since it was written. And we the Pathfinders were trying to consider all issues before presenting it to the fleet for discussion, just like we have with every other major topic, with the same due diligence and forethought. The idea of making the Guardian rank into an Armada representative has actually been brought up, but has been stalled because of HSās absence; he was the primary organizer of our involvement in the Armada, and as I stated earlier, Iām not sure whatās happening there. I sent him a message in the hopes of getting a response soon. And the idea of a ārulebookā desk? We donāt have a rule ābookā. We have barely a rule āpageā, and itās not that complicated. Nor is the forum. In the Member Information section, the first item on the very top of that folder is a guide, which states exactly what goes where. Thereās nothing ambiguous about anything on that document. And as far as the complexity of the forum ā you do NOT have an RP fleet for 5 years and not have a lot of stuff. Thatās impossible. So it gets ordered as best as can be, stuff that ages out gets archived, and thatās something that is always being worked on. Speaking of, I need to add the K-13 stuff to the Holdings guide... And before it gets said, discussing something thoroughly before presenting it to the fleet is not the same as ādeciding behind closed doors.ā No decision has been made, nor will there be before it gets put before the fleet. What weāre doing is considering all angles, listing options, and the pros and cons for each, just like every other major discussion. Considering nothing was decided in any of those other discussions prior to their posting, this insinuation of ābackstageā decisions is both tiring and offensive. We are not going to post minutes of every discussion session on the forum. This is a creative process, not a parliamentary one. The plan is to post a completed document that isnāt rushed or that fails to address the subject properly. Itās a big proposal, and not being taken lightly. As far as the Guardians having a "policeman" aura, coming from the same source as a post complaining about "all these new rules" (which, again, have totaled only 4,) I find that a weird characteristic to post as a positive aspect. But more importantly, we don't need "police". This is not a fleet that needs that kind of thing. And on the note of rules - the four rules we had were the four topics that were the source of the most bitter complaints and arguments in the fleet. You yourself came to me with complaints on those very issues, most notably the Borg abilities and rank abuse. Which is why it's particularly objectionable to find that now we acted on these very complaints, we're now getting complaints about our actions...from the very same people who made the original complaints. Damned if we do and damned if we don't? I don't take well to that kind of thing. You say you know volunteers that want to help? Tell them to come to me. We need Narrators to run RPs, who won't disappear three weeks later. We need Mentors who will be active in recruiting, while understanding they can stand firm on the "I don't do mediation or rules enforcement", which for reasons unknown several former Mentors didn't seem to think they could, and therefore tried to shoulder more than they were obliged to. I'm planning on posting the Guardian discussion very shortly, now regardless of whether or not HS returns in the immediate future. And yes, if he doesn't return, that particular issue will not be ignored either.
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mobius395
Member
In life, you need to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em.
Posts: 47
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Post by mobius395 on Nov 19, 2016 23:15:11 GMT
Chris, I think it's safe to say, you've kicked the Hornet's Nest on this one.
That being said, as an almost two year member of this fleet, I've seen a couple groups come and go. Hammerhead went on a pause, Claren started then went on hiatus, among other things. From experience, the effort has to come from both sides. The GM's can't do all the work; it's a two way street. Personally, I haven't put forward any plots of my own due to my own fear of criticism. It's been a trait of mine I'm keen to get rid of.
There are good points on both sides of the argument.
Edit: Fixed some spelling mistakes, mobile keyboard sucks.
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Post by Geralyn on Nov 19, 2016 23:58:04 GMT
Chris, I think it's safe to say, you've kicked the Hornet's Nest on this one. Such remarks do not contribute to a civil discussion. Chris has the right to voice his concerns, however much I might happen to disagree with things implied. Further comments of this nature will be moderated.
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limi
Member
Posts: 43
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Post by limi on Nov 20, 2016 0:43:18 GMT
Well, as someone who got the Narrator role to tell my stories for Academy, I stepped back from that particular project when I had week after week after week of no one but my wife and Kiso showing up despite plenty of people saying they wanted to be there.
I'm more than willing to GM other projects if people tell me they need a hand, or even just to assist. But thus far, no one has shot me a forum mail or in-game mail informing me that I can be of aid.
As the activity in my field of interests has waned, I've shown up less and less. But I'm usually here, and if people want better access to me, I'm more than willing to give out my email or steam account. Doesn't matter to me.
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Post by Geralyn on Nov 20, 2016 1:00:10 GMT
Well, as someone who got the Narrator role to tell my stories for Academy, I stepped back from that particular project when I had week after week after week of no one but my wife and Kiso showing up despite plenty of people saying they wanted to be there. I'm more than willing to GM other projects if people tell me they need a hand, or even just to assist. But thus far, no one has shot me a forum mail or in-game mail informing me that I can be of aid. As the activity in my field of interests has waned, I've shown up less and less. But I'm usually here, and if people want better access to me, I'm more than willing to give out my email or steam account. Doesn't matter to me. ^^ This. This right here. This happens far too often. People say they want to RP, a Narrator steps up, everyone says ooh, count me in...and then people don't show up. And when this happens, I can understand fully why they would be discouraged. And why they would step down. If the fleet wants RP, they do have a responsibility to make an effort to find it, and attend it if they sign up. And it's not a new problem, either. I did a post on this too.
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kigo
Member
Posts: 5
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Post by kigo on Nov 20, 2016 3:14:02 GMT
I know I'm one of those that has been gone for a significant amount of time to RL issues, and my time in game is still scarce because of new schedules and everything else that's been going on. I think that goes for quite a few people as far as attendance, and not just for the roles that they filled or have filled in the past. As far as Fleet Events or Fleet RP ships, I know that most, if not all of us have seen considerable effort in getting those up and running and to keep those going, but it shouldn't just fall on one person or a person with a certain rank to solely maintain that. Lack of RP or attendance for those events, I think it's more reasonable that can be attributed to RL issues, sudden disinterest, scheduling conflicts, laziness or even a combination of all of those. It takes more than just the contributions those holding ranks within the fleet, it also takes the effort of the core roleplayers themselves, especially those that sign up for events or whatnot and end up being no shows for said events.
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Post by miller11b on Nov 20, 2016 3:28:08 GMT
Not gonna lie, IRL has been kicking my ass lately. Otherwise, I'd be a lot more active. I'm going on record as staying out of this one. I'm not here enough to really know what's going on, and I've avoided leadership roles in this fleet (and its predecessors) for the simple fact that I'm not really interested. When things actually affect me, my stories, or my characters, then I'll be concerned. In the meantime, I'm just here for the flame war.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on Nov 20, 2016 3:32:23 GMT
Well, as someone who got the Narrator role to tell my stories for Academy, I stepped back from that particular project when I had week after week after week of no one but my wife and Kiso showing up despite plenty of people saying they wanted to be there. I'm more than willing to GM other projects if people tell me they need a hand, or even just to assist. But thus far, no one has shot me a forum mail or in-game mail informing me that I can be of aid. As the activity in my field of interests has waned, I've shown up less and less. But I'm usually here, and if people want better access to me, I'm more than willing to give out my email or steam account. Doesn't matter to me. ^^ This. This right here. This happens far too often. People say they want to RP, a Narrator steps up, everyone says ooh, count me in...and then people don't show up. And when this happens, I can understand fully why they would be discouraged. And why they would step down. If the fleet wants RP, they do have a responsibility to make an effort to find it, and attend it if they sign up. And it's not a new problem, either. I did a post on this too.This is the issue I had in my stint as a Narrator. I had story ideas and things I wanted to do, or was willing to do for others, but it fell to either one or two people replying to the casting call, or complete silence after people initially showed interest, and not for lack of trying. The effort has to come from both sides, or nothing happens and the stagnation continues.
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Claudius
Member
"Take it easy."
Posts: 38
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Post by Claudius on Nov 20, 2016 14:26:55 GMT
This is the issue I had in my stint as a Narrator. I had story ideas and things I wanted to do, or was willing to do for others, but it fell to either one or two people replying to the casting call, or complete silence after people initially showed interest, and not for lack of trying. The effort has to come from both sides, or nothing happens and the stagnation continues. Similar issue I had when I've tried to start weekly KDF Starbase RP. The 5-6 times over the years I've tried starting it, each time it only last around 4-5 weeks before people had stopped showing entirely. I've asked people if anything was wrong, but never got a clear answer. Its hard to get anything going when people don't show up. Even asked people if they had ideas for stuff or things they would like to see happen, to offer some more open playermade-events/make-your-own-story-and-share-it stuff, and got no replies. Now its been well over a year ago since I've tried getting this up and running since I hoped maybe people needed a longer break from it and would then want it more. But doesn't seem to be the case.
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Post by oyani on Nov 20, 2016 16:21:29 GMT
I appreciate the variety of responses here, and also I want to extend my thanks to those who support, GM and mentor--Ger, Spots, Slink, Miller, Norc, Kiso, and those who I don't see because of timezone differences--for their roles in creating interesting experiences and yoking in those of us who are new to RP in general. (I include myself in this--at least, I still feel like I am in the "Yikes! What do I do now?" stage.) I'll refrain from adding my voice to the topic at hand as I feel that I have yet to develop more nuanced knowledge of the underpinnings of fleet roleplay, but in my nonresponse response, I do think it's important to underscore the great--and often invisible--work that many, named, unnamed, on- and offline, are doing.
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Post by Chris Winters on Nov 23, 2016 0:12:38 GMT
Quick reply, since I'm out sick and see a lot has been misunderstood already.
Generally I'm not saying everyone go home and do something else. I'm saying we're becoming fewer and fewer and need to react accordingly to prevent us becoming less people than needed to provide a living, breathing rp fleet that doesn't just consist of one clique per rp ship that all have not much else in common in the end. That we need to get more people into our family here and treat them as part of it, offer them something to grow into it with. That has always been our casual base shenannigans, which has been kinda-dead for long before the Terrans came around. Recruiting, teaching through RPing together and mentoring, providing people to talk to about problems and people who prevent problems. The whole shebang.
Fleet Admiral / Starbase Personally I can do without one, but I also don't RP a Captain. I've often heard them say how it feels rather detached rping to IC be part of a fleet but not having a superior officer to refer to in storybuilding, having to resort to Quinn/T'Nae/etc. I felt the same when GMing Exodus, it just feels a bit.. unauthentic. So far, Pathfinders saw to it that this position was filled, same as the Starbase Captain position. Here's a thought, why not add together as .. hmm.. say.. a Starbase RP "ship" thing, with a GM taking care of staffing, putting the GM OOCly kindof "above" the FA visibly (since it'd be clearly just an IC role then, with a visible ooc coordinator ontop) who can send people to the right go-to-guys? For that matter, another train of thought, could the base, as a central hub for the fleet daily CASUAL RP, be managed by all ship GMs together? Preventing burnouts and time issues while always having something to offer? It would also get them together somehow, to discuss, learn from each other and all the good stuff we tried out in the past like GM gatherings gets the possibility of becoming sortof a regular thing. And I'm not talking making plots - those can pop up occasionally if one of the GMs wants to try out something he can't do on a ship. Just staff management and such background stuff. Wouldn't that be an idea?
Coordination vs Attendance Really, its the same thing. If I can't get my RP group to come together once a week, I can't coordinate with them enough to make attendance a thing. I'm not into english enough to consider this two entirely differrent issues somehow, nor do I understand why I should. If you coordinate people properly, you know in advance if you have to reschedule or not. Period. Please don't make this discussion too difficult to follow. Pointing at the casting call section doesn't help when there's no pool to find players from, either. Having the same 5 people on every RP ship in the end can't be a valid goal. New folks is key. Arb directly recruited from outside the fleet, even got us some new folks through that directly that way (KUDOS! Even if they didn't stick around as fleet members and the ship crumbled. That's not all your job, that's Mentors.), Exodus went ahead and looked for people outside the fleet as well, not requiring players to be Tellers anymore to play onboard. Midway has the same veterans the other ships have, afaik. The well has run dry, and its more difficult to coordinate with outsiders who can't use fleet assets such as the forums. That's the problem. We need a bigger well, and a maintained one at that.
15 Minutes ..was the allotted time for preparing the very first post in here. And look how many weigh in with so much! That is awesome.
Guardians ..have always been there to uphold and enforce the rules we have, that is NOT a new function for them. Don't act like they weren't supposed to do that ever, or that we need rules but nobody impartial (read: differrent from the ones who hand them out) to uphold them. I know it doesn't fill their day, mostly because we all usually get along, that's why I'm suggesting adding stuff that needs doing anyway and wouldn't conflict with what they already do. As soon as we get any influx of new people again, someone still needs to point at the rules and say "don't forget your training, young padawan." Its less intimidating to someone new to be set straight (if at all needed) when its not the top brass doing it, too. Hence Guardians. "Your friend and helper. Neither your boss nor your enemy." (Quoted bit in my country describes the thing you demonize, the definition of a "policeman aura". Kindly look over the fence and realize people are not trying to insinuate bad stuff with every word they type up. Over here, friend and helper is a compliment still. I did not call them executioners, do not infer otherwise.) New players could totally need/make use of those helping hands.
Charter changes ..are rather minimal if you just want to add stuff to a role and can be quite easily voted upon within two months. This is a fleet of friends, not the US Congress. I think everyone understands that some stuff at some point just falls out of date and has to adjust to make sense, if you make a short intro about it and just ask. We are not democrat congressmen, you are not a republican president. We're all Roleplayers in here with the same goal. Fun play. No need to overcomplicate. No need to flip because I called it "the rulebook" for once, either. Its an expression I use every day IRL.
Forums Please go around and ask people if they are practical, intimidating or even confusing. You will be surprised about the answers. It is a complex beast, that is why administrating it has been a job for someone other than the Pathfinders for a good while, to free them up to handle e.g. writeups about K-13. You changed that back on your own instead of looking for a successor.
..and lastly. Discussions "behind closed doors" vs "due dilligence and forethought". A big part of what inspired me to poke you three on this is that this internal discussion phase and overly long writeups before putting it forward is simply taking ages sometimes. Look at the matters I brought up. - Guardians not having much to do, able to take on more stuff? Been unchanged about 2 years. Can be changed in a months time. - Forums being used less and less, maybe in need of simplification? Same duration, two months fix. - Starbase and in-fleet-RP being down? Over a year, still not adressed. - Us not getting new members that get to be part of this family? Way over a year, only sporadical exceptions when done by ship GMs. - Job positions not being fulfilled? Way over a year, has not even been talked about publicly before now. Those are key things that have been broken sooo long. Instead we focussed on which uniform we want in use ICly, while we get no new recruits in the door who could even start to wear them. We've been creating rules for people that might come through a door thats blocked shut by big stuff we rightout ignored and put aside for "way later". Those of us here right now would follow those new rules even if they had never been mentioned or made, anyway. That's what makes me sad, angry, and wonder what is going on "up there". And not just me. I've even had somebody tell me like two months ago that "Geri wants to do away with everything except one Pathfinder, some GMs and players, that's why they're sitting on the obviously broken stuff, forbidding to criticize it openly." Needless to say I laughed it off, even if it left me to wonder if you would outright delete this entire discussion and kick me for speaking up. But really, even a small "vote if we don't want to see this used ICly" takes rather long. By the time its done we start discussing the next lockbox already all over again. There's simpler ways, that need less time, to get these things sorted. We don't need you three to write up doctorates before every discussion phase of every vote, especially for such tiny issues as lockbox ships or Borg parts in humans. The discussion and vote can take up enough time on their own. Literally just ask and get the ball rolling. All the stuff that "has to be considered" can be brought up during the discussion, by any of us or you or.. you know? Don't drown yourselves in that stuff. It always seems like you're all so swamped, pushing sooo many balls downhill. Just get them rolling once, they'll get there. We all should be the ones poking them if they get stuck on the way down to a decision. And that's the only thing I'm trying to do here, even if its big balls. Cause they need to get down there so we all can play with them again. When you present all pros and cons to a topic ahead of time, with one side simply being one more bullet point than the other, it implies a direction and some people will end up not even bothering to speak their mind as soon as they see that. Very common, sad thing. Circumvent that, go easy. Creating something like the charter from scratch needs due dilligence and forethought. Everyday lifeline maintenance aka "recruit/teach/make part of fleet/keep happy" requires a little as well. But other than that? Don't overcomplicate it, that stuff slows us down like nothing else. You got a whole fleet to bring up thoughts in a discussion. What better way to make people feel part of the process and share their thoughts open and honest? Don't censor people for speaking their mind. Encourage it, and see what emerges from it. It IS safe to say "we kicked a hornet's nest with this one", because it is an accurate observation of a good thing happening here. People are flocking to busily discuss fleet stuff. That's awesome. We haven't had that in a long time. Do not moderate this thread. You are one "side" of the discussion, partial, and misunderstanding intentions. Let Kal do that, if at all necessary. He seems neutral and way less enraged by all this than you. Try to calm down, nobody is .. I dunno, calling for your own personal head or anything like that. We only want to help out with the stuff we worry about, and show you why we worry so you understand where everyone's coming from and make some stuff better in the future. For the fleet. If some finds that hits the spot - all the better! Especially since he brings up a good thing to discuss elsewhere, "fear of critiscism". Personally I observe that a lot in players RPing, maybe thats a thing we can discuss sometime, all together, and make better.
So yeah, volunteeeeeers! Alex, Stryker, myself already stepped up in here. I'm positive that if you ask, there's way more. (I'll not put down a list of folks who came to me about it, because its been a while and RL changes rapidly. But I'll poke them.)
So folks! Poke your nearest Pathfinder about helping the fleet out. Even if you can only commit to doing this-or-that role for a month, its a month worth of getting stuff done and a month worth of new ideas to work with.
Cheers, Chris
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