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Post by Geralyn on May 10, 2015 0:46:53 GMT
Discussion on Alts in the Fleet
One of the issues brought to the Pathfinders for discussion was the matter of how many alts one player should have in the fleet. Some, of course, only have one or two. In the past, there have been people with as many as fourteen. More than a few people have voiced their opinion that there should be a practical limit. Several reasons have been put forward, and are presented here. Reasons to Limit Alts
Fleet resources: It has been said that we as a fleet do not focus on fleet holdings or gear, but rather on roleplay. Yet as we have seen, our roleplay fleet does have a healthy level of consumption of fleet gear items, and a constant need to replenish provisions. There have, in fact been times we have run out of a given provision. Too many alts in the fleet means the ability to buy far more fleet gear items, and given how long it takes to fill a provision project, there are not enough hours in a day for someone to play a dozen alts long enough to contribute enough to offset this. Administrative work: Every character of a given player is kept at the same rank. Which means promotion, demotion, or in the event it is necessary, disciplinary action or removal of a given player will take longer, since the fleet roster can not be sorted by @handle. Roleplaying: It is a proven concept that in order to establish a character in roleplaying, one must devote time. Time for the character to be introduced, to make connections with other characters, build relationships, and earn confidence. If a player is bouncing every so many minutes between alts, that time is not made available, and roleplay suffers for all the player's characters. To me, this last one is the most important. It defeats the purpose of being in a roleplaying fleet if one only churns out a never-ending stream of characters and never takes the time to develop any of them. * * *
Although I do support the implementation of limits on alts, I'm wary of proposing too restrictive a number. I'm going to propose her a possible range, maybe eight to ten. If you feel a number lower than eight should be instituted, tell us in the comments. Numbers higher than 10 will not be considered. So tell us your thoughts! If you believe alts should have a limit, and have reasons other than what's been posted here, share them. If you feel you have reasons why limits should not be imposed, you may post them here.
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Talla
Member
Uh... happy?
Posts: 51
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Post by Talla on May 10, 2015 1:12:48 GMT
I agree with this. I have often felt that having to many character is detrimental in an RP fleet, because it doesn't give you the time to flesh out any one character, a chance to feel and grow the character, if you're constantly swapping between this character, that character and the backstabbing Romulan.
I myself, in the Storytellers right now, have Aldi, Jen, Kel'is and Miranda. That's it, to my knowledge, and I barely have a chance to RP Kel'is or Miranda as it is. I think a limit of 10 is more then fair, and possibly to fair.
Personally, I think a limit of 1 main and 5 alts is more then sufficient for an RP fleet. But that's just me.
*gives Ana-Stamp. Hands Geralyn 2 cents.*
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Post by sirarajari on May 10, 2015 1:20:49 GMT
10 seems more than a fair number per account in my honest opinion, though truthfully unless you're purchasing massive amounts of character accounts on a single handle that shouldn't be an issue.
I have Sahreen, Sira, Zhree, Allison (Oklahoma), Terra and Ai'Len. I honestly have different reasons for having each and most likely won't be adding beyond them at all.
Zhree is rarely used, as is Sira. Terra is only on when her twin is. *hifives Nemi* and the others are primarily active for various reasons. I doubt I'll hit 10 at any point.
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krow
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Post by krow on May 10, 2015 1:24:10 GMT
Okay let me put my two cents in.
Fleet resources: Not an issue. Look at how many provisions we have. Now remember we're an RP fleet. Say someone has 30 alt characters in the fleet. Do you really think an RPer will spend the time grinding through PVE to get a bunch of them full sets of fleet gear? Hell, we're lucky to find ONE alt who buys a ton of gear. And it's usually spread out. We're in no danger of running out of anything, and as long as I've been in this fleet, never have been.
Administrative: So what if it takes an extra couple minutes of effort to find all the alts and remove them? Is lazyness a reason to limit something? If someone doesn't want to take the time to search through all the names to remove a problem person (which has happened, what, twice this year? Three, four times?) I'll happily volunteer to help search. I'm sure others would too.
Roleplaying: I agree wholeheartedly to the idea. People should focus more on the personalities and stories of a select few characters. BUT. We can't make someone do that by limiting how many they can have in the fleet. It needs to be THEIR choice. Besides, we have an open Starbase. Say someone has one Alt in the fleet, sees people on the Starbase, and asks for an invite. We send it to them. Point becomes moot. Besides, say they want more characters in it. We say no. So they put a character in another fleet. Suddenly we're sharing attention between multiple fleets. When people should really be only focusing on one IMO. I tried the two fleet thing once. I ended up neglecting a lot of the plot I had with Tellers.
So IMO, we really shouldn't even be considering limiting Alts. Confused as to why this was even brought up, to be honest.
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Post by Geralyn on May 10, 2015 1:32:07 GMT
...Confused as to why this was even brought up, to be honest. This, like all of the discussions brought up before and all those being brought up in the future, are issues that have been brought up by a significant number of members, and a considerable number of times. Issues that people have inquired or complained about for months, if not years, in the history of the fleet. Not all of these issues will be important to all members, I do understand this. But if it made it to the list at all, it wasn't because of one idle comment by one member. How important the fleet as a whole considers the issue, of course, will be determined by the results of the discussion.
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Flynt
Member
I'm just here for the donuts.
Posts: 222
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Post by Flynt on May 10, 2015 1:32:59 GMT
I agree with this. I have often felt that having to many character is detrimental in an RP fleet, because it doesn't give you the time to flesh out any one character, a chance to feel and grow the character, if you're constantly swapping between this character, that character and the backstabbing Romulan. Let me call a spade a spade. The problem isn't really with the number of alts that are in the fleet. The problem, especially as summarized above, is with players who have a large number of alts. So it looks to me like the pathfinders and others would like fleet members to be people who do only play a handful of characters. Altaholics need not apply. As an altaholic myself, maybe this is for the better. On one hand, you have the issue that Aldi gets at above. You don't get to develop any one character because you're always switching. On the other hand, you might always be switching because you keep trying to find that right combination of backstory and characteristics to be interesting to yourself and others. Either way, all players come away unsatisfied. So if my assertion is correct, let's just say that shall we, and not quibble over administrivia.
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Post by Geralyn on May 10, 2015 1:40:26 GMT
...So it looks to me like the pathfinders and others would like fleet members to be people who do only play a handful of characters. Altaholics need not apply. To clarify: Though I do find myself agreeing with the proposal upon considering it, this proposal, and the others you will see in these discussions, were not put forward by the Pathfinders, but by other members in the fleet. And my concern over making things too restrictive is why I suggested 8 or 10 alts, rather than 4 or 5.
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Post by firebringeraxel on May 10, 2015 1:52:36 GMT
I'm down with this. As someone with one of the highest numbers of alts in the fleet I really don't see an issue with the number 8-10. 5 on the other hand would be an issue for me. I have... 11 characters in the Federation Fleet at this moment. Several of which only come out for specific occasions such as Academy or Claren for the most part. More of those 11 are non-Federation/Starfleet officers. I've always been capable of playing numerous characters with varied personas and stories with no problem. Only reason I pull it off is lots of free time. I have no issue with dropping 1 alt from the fleet if the limit of 10 passes. Administrative: So what if it takes an extra couple minutes of effort to find all the alts and remove them? Is lazyness a reason to limit something? I'm having more trouble 1) seeing how you see this as an issue, and 2) How you can rationalize calling people lazy for not wanting to hunt through over 100 characters for peoples alts; especially if they weren't all the same rank. That would make the process unnecessarily difficult.
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Post by Geralyn on May 10, 2015 1:55:29 GMT
...I'm having more trouble 1) seeing how you see this as an issue, and 2) How you can rationalize calling people lazy for not wanting to hunt through over 100 characters for peoples alts; especially if they weren't all the same rank. That would make the process unnecessarily difficult. It's actually a bit over 100 unique players, with close to three hundred characters, in a fleet roster that will only display 50 names at a time.
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Post by firebringeraxel on May 10, 2015 1:59:13 GMT
...I'm having more trouble 1) seeing how you see this as an issue, and 2) How you can rationalize calling people lazy for not wanting to hunt through over 100 characters for peoples alts; especially if they weren't all the same rank. That would make the process unnecessarily difficult. It's actually a bit over 100 unique players, with close to three hundred characters, in a fleet roster that will only display 50 names at a time. I knew it was larger than 100, was just tossing out a number. I wasn't expecting the unique player number to be that high though to be honest.
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krow
Member
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Post by krow on May 10, 2015 2:35:23 GMT
...I'm having more trouble 1) seeing how you see this as an issue, and 2) How you can rationalize calling people lazy for not wanting to hunt through over 100 characters for peoples alts; especially if they weren't all the same rank. That would make the process unnecessarily difficult. It's actually a bit over 100 unique players, with close to three hundred characters, in a fleet roster that will only display 50 names at a time. So, six pages with 50 names each. I guess it depends on what person is doing it. Personally, I don't see how finding alts would be an issue. But that's just me. Part of my day job is finding names in huge lists. I guess maybe I just have an eye for it. I can see how others might not feel similarly. So maybe lazy isn't the right word.
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Post by greeneagle346 on May 10, 2015 4:31:07 GMT
Having been in previous fleets with excessive alt limits (106th...) I was initially very opposed to limits here. However, I can understand the database problems, especially with the not so user friendly interface STO has for roster management. Additionally, the placement of the upper limit at 8-10... I... I actually don't have an issue with that. It's high enough for us to having sufficient RP alts (and some less RP based), while leaving room for other members. I would endorse 8-10 with my vote. This coming from an alt-holic.
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Post by firebringeraxel on May 10, 2015 4:40:27 GMT
I'm honestly baffled that people are getting this upset about this to start dropping alts from the fleet as soon as it comes up and be semi-combative about this. It's a discussion. Nowhere on this does it say "This is now a new rule." We are supposed to be discussing whether this Should be a rule or not. So please discuss, make your opinions clear, say yay or nay or 'meh'; but don't jump to 'this is the end' and 'get out before it all explodes' kind of reactions. That's not going to help anyone.
If i am imagining any Hostility; which is possible due to written word being bad at tone, then please ignore this post and continue along.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on May 10, 2015 4:58:23 GMT
Okay then... moving on.
I'll state that I understand the reasons given, but I disagree with limiting alts on the first and third basis.
1. I believe that it isn't really a large portion of the fleet that is eating up the resources, but a few people who frequently gear ships with fleet gear. Either way, I'm honestly fine with it. I personally don't gear out /all/ of my characters with fleet stuff, but I know there are people who do.
3. I personally believe it is up to people to manage their own RP characters. If they have a large number of characters that aren't truly developed, it is something they should address themselves. I had a similar issue at one point myself, and I can honestly say after going back and pushing myself to develop the lesser used characters, I am a better RPer for it. That choice, however, has to come from the player's desire to see those characters become fleshed out, and not from feeling like they must choose carefully between characters.
This is coming from someone who has 4 active RP characters. I will also admit to having two inactive characters that I am considering rerolling and a character that... quite frankly got left hanging because their siblings are no longer active/in the fleet.
*Puts two cents in the box*
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 5:20:51 GMT
*drops a nickle in the box cuz Canada don't have pennies*
I understand the points that have brought to the table and personally one should always exercise caution and moderation when dealing with alts. In my own list of toons, I have one or two I may drop from the fleet simply for the reason that I don't see them being of use in the near future. It is amazing what self pruning can do. In terms of provisions... once again people should exercise moderation. maybe rules need to be put in place regarding if someone has been noticed buying a ton of fleet gear that they could be reminded to share...in terms of admin I get it... I've done it. there should be a within reason Claus added if anything to alts ... aka 20 toons only if you play them for instance.
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Post by Geralyn on May 10, 2015 5:28:23 GMT
.... maybe rules need to be put in place regarding if someone has been noticed buying a ton of fleet gear that they could be reminded to share... As a note in this regard, there is no way to track who buys what. It isn't possible in the given system. Also, addressing a previous comment about never having run out of provisions...we have tried to keep up on the number of provisions, but we have, in fact, run out of some provisions on two different occasions since the Spire went live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 6:30:10 GMT
.... maybe rules need to be put in place regarding if someone has been noticed buying a ton of fleet gear that they could be reminded to share... As a note in this regard, there is no way to track who buys what. It isn't possible in the given system. Also, addressing a previous comment about never having run out of provisions...we have tried to keep up on the number of provisions, but we have, in fact, run out of some provisions on two different occasions since the Spire went live. I am aware there is no way of tracking. my comment was meant to reflect say someone constantly in the Starbase/spire/embassy/mine, not engaging in RP, clearly being seen all the time (relatively) in front of the fleet vendors and say they are boasting about all the fleet gear they just got. This would be the good ol' hmm spidey sense is tingling method. If you suspect someone of overusing fleet provisions you could simply ask them if they have gotten any new shiny of late and/or remind them not to overuse provisions.
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ryftlord
Member
"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
Posts: 86
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Post by ryftlord on May 10, 2015 7:02:23 GMT
As a note in this regard, there is no way to track who buys what. It isn't possible in the given system. Also, addressing a previous comment about never having run out of provisions...we have tried to keep up on the number of provisions, but we have, in fact, run out of some provisions on two different occasions since the Spire went live. I am aware there is no way of tracking. my comment was meant to reflect say someone constantly in the Starbase/spire/embassy/mine, not engaging in RP, clearly being seen all the time (relatively) in front of the fleet vendors and say they are boasting about all the fleet gear they just got. This would be the good ol' hmm spidey sense is tingling method. If you suspect someone of overusing fleet provisions you could simply ask them if they have gotten any new shiny of late and/or remind them not to overuse provisions. I know what you are trying to say, but that isn't always an accurate indicator. I may or may not be the only one who does it, but sometimes I'll idle on a random fleet holding while I'm tabbed out. It also doesn't help that the fleet stores on the Starbase are next to one of the most frequented utilities. The Tailor. On that same note, I'd say only running out twice in the span of... a year and a half almost? That's not really a huge deal, but that's just the way I see it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 15:48:24 GMT
I am aware there is no way of tracking. my comment was meant to reflect say someone constantly in the Starbase/spire/embassy/mine, not engaging in RP, clearly being seen all the time (relatively) in front of the fleet vendors and say they are boasting about all the fleet gear they just got. This would be the good ol' hmm spidey sense is tingling method. If you suspect someone of overusing fleet provisions you could simply ask them if they have gotten any new shiny of late and/or remind them not to overuse provisions. I know what you are trying to say, but that isn't always an accurate indicator. I may or may not be the only one who does it, but sometimes I'll idle on a random fleet holding while I'm tabbed out. It also doesn't help that the fleet stores on the Starbase are next to one of the most frequented utilities. The Tailor. On that same note, I'd say only running out twice in the span of... a year and a half almost? That's not really a huge deal, but that's just the way I see it. I know its not the most accurate way of doing business but my response is simple: what harm is there in reminding people and if it looks suspicious it likely could be and thus doesn't hurt to ask about fleet gear/tell them about provisions. No harm no foul.
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krow
Member
Posts: 177
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Post by krow on May 10, 2015 18:28:21 GMT
I wasn't aware we ever ran out. I guess it wasn't a big enough issue to implant itself in my memory. I assume we lined up a few projects and filled up our provisions fast?
Limiting fleet gear is something I VEHEMENTLY oppose. The 26th does it, and it cripples them. And in my eyes, using fleet provisions as a reason to limit Alts is similar enough to bother me. We're a RP fleet. Even if we run out of fleet provisions in a certain area, what happens? We have to wait a brief period while we re-stock. MANY other fleets run out of provisions routinely. In the month I was in the 26th, it happened twice and they had to lock the stores completely.
As RPers, the majority of our players don't care enough to grind. And those that do, focus on one or two characters to outfit with high-end gear. And outfitting a characters takes a long time of grinding. Yes, one person can go in with a crap-ton of marks and Dil and buy a full set of space gear in one sitting, but remember where they got that credit. By contributing to fleet. Tac consoles alone cost 50,000 fleet credit a piece. To get that much, they have to contribute a lot. I'd say if they managed to grind that, they're entitled to buy whatever they want.
I want you guys to look at what fleet gear you have on all your Alts in the fleet. Figure in how long it took you to get it. Then look at overall holding contributions. Then ask yourself if requisitions is really an issue.
I completely agree that if someone isn't actually in the fleet to RP, it should be made an issue. I personally feel that people who don't interact with us or RP should have their membership in the fleet questioned, but that's another thing. So yeah. If someone is JUST here for the gear, tell them to bugger off. But for RPers who actively participate and contribute? I say go nuts. Buy what you want. Even if we run out, we have enough people with crap tons of resources to fill up more provision projects.
If limiting Alts is actually being considered, it's my opinion that we should focus more on the administrative and RP aspects. Not the gear.
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