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Post by hszmv on Apr 22, 2014 22:15:41 GMT
Due to the most recent season release, there has been some discussion on how we will respond to in character Undine ships. Due to a multitude of issues, the Pathfinders have decided that there will be an indefinite ban on IN CHARACTER ALLIED Undine Ships. This means that they will not be allowed. This will not be allowed.
This was determined because of several major concerns, chief among them is that they are too overpowered. A single Undine ship blew up three borg cubes... a mere glancing blow royally messed up Voyager... 8 Ships Death Starred a planet. In the interest of keeping the fleet fun for everyone, keeping realistic threats, and not causing a massive "Keeping up with the Jones" we have decided not to allow them as ships your character can use ICly.
The exceptions to this rule are as follows:
*For location purposes (you are using this ship's bridge for an RP event where characters are on a hostile Undine Ship). *For Stand-In ships (i.e. your original race flies a ship best modeled by an Undine Ship model, but is clearly noted to be the original race's design.) *For OOC purposes only (Pwn away.).
It should be noted that the Pathfinders do not throw the word "ban" around lightly and do not wish to limit the Creative potential of the fleet and that we shouldn't have to make statements like this. The Fleet should know why Undine Ships shouldn't be used as IC RP ships. However, we feel that the now that the ship is playable, we should err on the side of caution and clearly spell out that this will not be acceptable.
Thank you very much for your attention. If you feel we have made a poor call, please feel free to discuss.
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tewha7
Member
You can't be a hero unless you're rising above circumstance.
Posts: 141
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Post by tewha7 on Apr 23, 2014 1:52:17 GMT
I think this is a good approach. It's easier to recognize them later when things are more clear than to un-recognize them later when we realize how very messed up things are.
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krow
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Post by krow on Apr 23, 2014 4:52:33 GMT
Well. Let's think about this logically. Say by some miraculous feat or cunning plan Starfleet gets their hands on a Nicor. Would they strip it out, make it flyable by bipeds, then throw it back into the fight? No. They'd box it up in secret, sneak it away to some secret facility, and spend the next 5 years poking it and prodding it then using what they learned in the war effort. Like creating Reputation gear. They wouldn't risk such a valuable resource by deploying it. It would be a massive target to any Undine ships that saw it. Which would endanger the crew. Starfleet wouldn't risk it. Also, this applies to most alien ships including Elachi and Tholian. They just don't make sense IC.
As for being OP, the Nicor comes with a console that lets it summon ally Nicors and do the planet cracking beam from the end of Scorpion part 1. Which most people will see as justification for having one IC. Not to mention RPers habit of making their ships more powerful than they actually are. I could see people flying ships that can appear out of a rift, nuke a planet or a Starbase, regenerate any damage they take, then vanish into fluidic space again.
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Post by korzan on Apr 23, 2014 5:17:34 GMT
Yeah. I reckon its a good approach. Besides, who wants to fly a ship thats gooey and has sphincters for doors?
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Post by norcaler on Apr 23, 2014 5:21:46 GMT
Conversely, despite the supposed upgrades to the NPC Undine ships, they're squishy. Heck, the only challenging part about the new battlezone is when the Voth show up.
That said, I support the fleet policy, which was first established when the existence of the Undine lockbox was first leaked over a month ago. And it's not like we haven't done something like this in the past; see the ban on Scimitars with thalaron weapons around the starbase. Or invasions by Terran fleets on a daily basis.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 6:55:49 GMT
I don't feel this is the right direction, rather than a ban perhaps we should be looking at the player and their story on a case by case scenario for ships like this. The Mentors could review it and work with the player to make sure their ship works with our canon. Something that is well with in their scope of work. We're a RP fleet and should look for ways to have someone's story work and help it to be told, not ban possible RP just because it poses a challenge. We've done this for many questionable ships/races in the past. - Time ships -key components have been removed
- Scimitar - the thalaron weapons removed
- Dyson Ships - only a limited few
Why are we stopping here? This should be looked at as an opportunity to make something good and show all the other nay saying fleets that it can be done and done well.
I had a huge post with references to the dev post and examples of how this can work but really, it's not needed. All we need to do is focus on helping one and other tell the best stories we can with everything at our disposal.
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Post by korzan on Apr 23, 2014 14:13:36 GMT
Rin the biggest issue for story is A: They're Bio-ships. We don't fully understand how they function, what they need and such. Why give them out to captains in the first place on an IC note? Why have them suddenly being stolen and/or taken? It is very far-fetched to do something like that. It'd take an extremely good story as to how someone got it, survived boarding it, killing the crew or capturing it AND figuring out how to run something that has not been fully studied at all IF at all.
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Post by starjumpersix on Apr 23, 2014 15:04:21 GMT
Well. Let's think about this logically. Say by some miraculous feat or cunning plan Starfleet gets their hands on a Nicor. Would they strip it out, make it flyable by bipeds, then throw it back into the fight? No. They'd box it up in secret, sneak it away to some secret facility, and spend the next 5 years poking it and prodding it then using what they learned in the war effort. Like creating Reputation gear. They wouldn't risk such a valuable resource by deploying it. It would be a massive target to any Undine ships that saw it. Which would endanger the crew. Starfleet wouldn't risk it. Also, this applies to most alien ships including Elachi and Tholian. They just don't make sense IC. As for being OP, the Nicor comes with a console that lets it summon ally Nicors and do the planet cracking beam from the end of Scorpion part 1. Which most people will see as justification for having one IC. Not to mention RPers habit of making their ships more powerful than they actually are. I could see people flying ships that can appear out of a rift, nuke a planet or a Starbase, regenerate any damage they take, then vanish into fluidic space again.
I cannot emphasis this one enough. Rin the biggest issue for story is A: They're Bio-ships. We don't fully understand how they function, what they need and such. Why give them out to captains in the first place on an IC note? Why have them suddenly being stolen and/or taken? It is very far-fetched to do something like that. It'd take an extremely good story as to how someone got it, survived boarding it, killing the crew or capturing it AND figuring out how to run something that has not been fully studied at all IF at all. Same with this one. Personally, I'm glad the Pathfinders had the balls to come out and make this call. And I still want to find out if Cryptic was HIGH the day they decided to put Undine bioships in lockboxes.
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Post by korzan on Apr 23, 2014 15:10:02 GMT
Im sure with tweaking (Not twerking) later down the track we can do some magic on this. Revisit the idea.
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krow
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Post by krow on Apr 23, 2014 15:29:53 GMT
...not twerking? Wait, if there's a ban on twerking now too... I am SO out of here. Because that is TOO FAR.
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Post by Jesse on Apr 23, 2014 16:22:12 GMT
Personally I'm all for this...
Several reasons really
One The Undine ships are. BIO-Ships Which means Only the Undine can really control them
Exhibit A From a Wiki
The bioship was an organic vessel that was used by Species 8472 and had a similar genetic makeup to their pilots. The bioships, and Species 8472 themselves, were resistant to assimilation by the Borg and had enough firepower to destroy a Borg ship with only a couple of shots. The bioships contained a series of vein-like conduits which carried electrodynamic fluid, possibly for use as an energy source.
Take a Look at the First Sentence A Genetic Makeup to the Pilot. So I'm going on on a Limb here and say Anyone else that tries to control it is going to be killed or fail horribly.
And like it was mentioned before It would be put away in some secret place because well? Undine would be all for killing that ship like no other because well? Technology in enemy hands? Not so great right?
Also Planet Killers? Who would really need one? Not Starfleet. They would poke Prod and all of that to see how it worked yes I see that, but like it was mentioned again. Why lose a great toy like that?
I support the ban because of my reasoning's above. I'm glad the ban hammer got swung quick as well to avoid any shit storms to could have arisen and I thank the Pathfinders for being impartial and thinking through this clearly
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 16:40:23 GMT
Little surprised at how this ban is being welcomed so easily. We've made exceptions before for other ships. The mentors/GM's can work with someone that has an idea for using one of these ships in RP. The Dev blog itself says the ships can be manned by alpha quadrant races after they've been modified and that there have been Undine that have cooperated with Starfleet in the past.
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 23, 2014 16:49:38 GMT
2.5 cents:
"Undine ship similar to Undine pilot" + "Undine ships have 1 crew, the pilot"
Undine can naturally(!) release a toxin within their own body that kills them before they get captured, dissolving them in te process. Would a ship that's genetically similar not do that same thing as well?
"Even the Borg cannot decypher and remodel Undine DNA to assimilate them"
Similar DNA ship, and Starfleet suddenly can read it? AND take a living being (aka ship) out of its fluidic space habitat, cut out a whole portion of its inner organs to insert Starfleet technology and deck plates for a crew, and install a lifesupport system for the being, so that it can stay out of liquid space forever, and is able to make it succumb to the will of its new, uninvited crew?
Sounda a terrible lot like a BSG Raider lobotomy to me, and even the Cylons were humane enough to be against it. And I'm sure even if Starfleet was ruthless enough for it, they still lacked the technology to do so.
..I'm not against "alien ships that use the costume", but we should leave the poor beasties alone.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Apr 23, 2014 18:30:23 GMT
Personally I'm all for this... BIO-Ships Which means Only the Undine can really control them I agree on this. I was actually talking to people when the Undine ships were 1st announced about how in my mind the ship; as a living organism, would probably treat non-Undine aboard like a virus and attempt to kill them. The how is less important but I can see the ship changing atmospheric settings, venting sections into space, and all sorts of fun shenanigans. Such things would to me make the idea of "gutting" the ship extremely dangerous and not really worth the effort just so some captain can fly it. Research purposes are a bit more plausible. On a side note I think an RP of a group boarding a "dead" Undine ship could be really fun.
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Post by kneelb4zod84 on Apr 23, 2014 19:40:50 GMT
Concur!
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Post by Geralyn on Apr 23, 2014 21:48:58 GMT
2.5 cents: "Undine ship similar to Undine pilot" + "Undine ships have 1 crew, the pilot" Undine can naturally(!) release a toxin within their own body that kills them before they get captured, dissolving them in te process. Would a ship that's genetically similar not do that same thing as well? "Even the Borg cannot decypher and remodel Undine DNA to assimilate them" Similar DNA ship, and Starfleet suddenly can read it? AND take a living being (aka ship) out of its fluidic space habitat, cut out a whole portion of its inner organs to insert Starfleet technology and deck plates for a crew, and install a lifesupport system for the being, so that it can stay out of liquid space forever, and is able to make it succumb to the will of its new, uninvited crew? Sounda a terrible lot like a BSG Raider lobotomy to me, and even the Cylons were humane enough to be against it. And I'm sure even if Starfleet was ruthless enough for it, they still lacked the technology to do so.... This. Right here. I can't begin to tell you how much it disturbs me that the devs think Starfleet would stoop to such butchery. Earth was supposed to have transcended this kind of thing after the Eugenics wars and WWIII. How this could be considered a good idea is beyond me, never mind any issues concerning power levels. If we're ok with this kind of thing being done ICly by Starfleet, we've stopped playing Star Trek. ...And I still want to find out if Cryptic was HIGH the day they decided to put Undine bioships in lockboxes. In light of my previous comment, Vil...I've got nothin'. Little surprised at how this ban is being welcomed so easily... Considering the comments left on the previous thread about special ships, as well as the reactions both on Crossover and on this thread, I'm honestly not surprised. It still has the "planet killer" ability, without even needing to coordinate with the other ships. And completely overlooking the fact that as soon as those other ships came in range, they'd realize "Hey, that's not one of us in there," by virtue of their extremely powerful telepathy. Yes, a 'signal' might trick them to coming over from Fluidic Space, but once on this side? Game over. Add that to the necessity of Starfleet committing atrocities just to make it work? I can't see that as okay, not and still call it Star Trek. We don't do anything on a whim. Certainly not arbitrarily ban a ship class because "we don't like it" or it's "too hard to GM for." A lot of thought went into this, over a long period of time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 1:41:22 GMT
Thank you Geralyn, the special ship thread didn't say anything about banning and focused more on treating the special ships as something that can be done, just limited and having good story around it. Exactly what I'm asking for this situation. Crossover is great for a real time discussion but we need a post to follow it on the forum so all are included if it's going to be referenced for situations like this. Also all this work that's put into this, is it possible to have a little more transparency so we can be more involved in what's going on as part of the decision process for something like this. Bans are a huge thing and could use more involvement. To address the concerns about "Add that to the necessity of Starfleet committing atrocities just to make it work? I can't see that as okay, not and still call it Star Trek." Sure it may not work for Starfleet characters but others it could. Heck we have characters in this fleet that have done far worse than gutting a bio ship to be used. This is my last post on this, I feel I've said all I can. I just hope everyone understands if we actually start these kinds of bans it opens up something that can cause some serious strains on future RP. Overall, I respect the fleet's choice on this and want to thank everyone for letting me express my view.
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Post by Jesse on Apr 24, 2014 1:59:02 GMT
I just wanted to say one last thing
I'm impressed by this thread. Not once did it get out of hand and not once did a shit storm arise.
Banning a ship can't be easy but we all have to understand that this didn't come lightly. The Ban hammer is a powerful too IMHO and should not only be respected but used wisely. I know there's a Line here when it comes to this and I see both sides of the fence but the one thing that separates us from the Nay Sayers is that we can come together and have these discussions as a whole. Work out our problems and move on from there without blood being shed. This. This right here is what I think is the best Things were handled well and we're still a Strong huge fleet. For that I thank all of you who voiced your opinions. I might still be sorta new but I love our fleet...Heck it's not even a fleet it's a family
Thats my two cent's on everything
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Post by Geralyn on Apr 24, 2014 8:13:40 GMT
My own last notes on it:
We are trying to maintain as much transparency on everything as possible. Given the size of the fleet, and given the hindrances we run into with the lines of communication (Three members still bounce fleet mails back due to "inbox full", seven members are still not hooked up to Crossover, and more than a few proudly boast they refuse to use the forum) we're not going to reach everyone. Having said that, we're not going to stop trying. We're still trying to reach out to the seven Crossover orphans, and still trying to give people compelling reasons to sign up on the forum.
Even using the word "ban" irks me, greatly. And I'm not happy about using it, and won't be enthusiastic about pushing for any future situations.
Having said that, a disclosure. I don't have an issue with PC Undines (Yo, Stella!) and think they do in fact have potential. Having said that, if someone who's okay with Undine characters in the fleet still has issues with the ships...
And yes, the fact it was kept civil is something to be happy about. The lines of communications have broadened, though there is room for more, and people talk more. It's something to encourage, and something to look forward to as we learn to communicate better.
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Post by korzan on Apr 24, 2014 15:19:39 GMT
PC undine? Hell yeah! The challenges and the.. weirdness of it all would be amazing to have fun roleplaying out. Except when they get angry and brains implode xD
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