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Post by firebringeraxel on Apr 24, 2014 15:29:24 GMT
Having said that, a disclosure. I don't have an issue with PC Undines (Yo, Stella!) and think they do in fact have potential. I would say that I have no problems with PC Undine either. Though I think they better have some really good reasons for helping the Federation. Also it is game canon that the Undine who signed the "treaty" with Voyager were of a small faction, so that faction alone leaves a good reason for allied Undine(This sort of also applies to Voth if were to ever get the ability to make aliens like them). Now does that mean I think they should be wandering without any kind of surveillance or be allowed to keep their ships? Nope.
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Post by killerwing on Apr 24, 2014 16:08:34 GMT
Having said that, a disclosure. I don't have an issue with PC Undines (Yo, Stella!) and think they do in fact have potential. I would say that I have no problems with PC Undine either. Though I think they better have some really good reasons for helping the Federation. Also it is game canon that the Undine who signed the "treaty" with Voyager were of a small faction, so that faction alone leaves a good reason for allied Undine(This sort of also applies to Voth if were to ever get the ability to make aliens like them). Now does that mean I think they should be wandering without any kind of surveillance or be allowed to keep their ships? Nope. Agreed. In fact, now that it was only a small faction among the Undine that accepted a truce with Voyager, it also explains why the old nanoprobe torpedo that Voyager had in the Featured Episode remained so effective. That small Undine faction might not have shared the informations they got from Voyager to the rest of the Undine. And I also agree on the obvious need of surveillance, and also restrict them from keeping their bio-ships. One issue I'd see on that is that the enemy Undine might just kill off the allied Undine if they find out they're siding with the Federation. After all for them, the weak must perish. And if some of their own decided to side with the weak, then they are probably viewed as weaklings as well. Overall I'm glad that the idea of banning the bioships for common use is accepted so well. I can really understand the necessity of such a ban, given the issues we had with some of the past rare ships.
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Claudius
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"Take it easy."
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Post by Claudius on Apr 24, 2014 18:50:48 GMT
No complaint about the ban from me! I fully agree!
And I agree with Krow and Korzan, if some officer came across or captured an alien ship like this. It would be taken to a secret base and studied! Taken apart and tested on! And we would be given gear and equipment made from those test to counter the alien tech. We wouldn't be given the alien ship itself to fly around in! (unless its a one time mission thing, where we would give the ship back after the mission and not fly it again)
The whole ingame explanation that the certain ships have been modified for our use is just a silly workaround gameplay-wise for us to have them. It doesn't work RP-wise with a lot of the ships. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
And as mentioned, you can still fly one and pretend its another ship from an alien race. Like OOCly one of my non-federation characters is flying a voth ship. ICly its a ship from her own race, NOT a voth ship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 3:29:23 GMT
To be honest, I believe that this is being blown WAY out of proportion. I agree with the case-by-case scenario for the bioships, and that any player bold enough to want one IC must pass their reasons through a Pathfinder. We can also so easily allow them IC by setting guidelines and terms of use. For instance, we apply so many restrictions to an IC bioship that it discourages anyone from using them IC.
Furthermore, I quote Geralyn on this point "This. Right here. I can't begin to tell you how much it disturbs me that the devs think Starfleet would stoop to such butchery. Earth was supposed to have transcended this kind of thing after the Eugenics wars and WWIII. How this could be considered a good idea is beyond me, never mind any issues concerning power levels. If we're ok with this kind of thing being done ICly by Starfleet, we've stopped playing Star Trek."
Okay, let me remind you respectfully that Star Trek Online is a game, meant for entertainment. A decision to add Undine ships as a playable vessel was a decision made for entertainment value. Undine ships could be fun to play and therefore were added solely for that purpose. It is a complete and utter moot point to argue whether or not Starfleet would even think about deploying bio-ships, because Starfleet is a fictional organization being captured in a piece of software. It cannot have opinions or make judgments.
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 26, 2014 7:29:30 GMT
Let me disagree with you there. We are rolepkayers, trying to stick close to what is canon in the universe we're playing in. STO itself, the game, is completely disregarded. Else all of us wozld be Admirals and everyone of us would have lived the game storyline and saved the universe twice daily.
The "complete and utter moot point" of creating our own storyline instead of just using what little PWE provides is the main idea of what we do in this fleet of roleplayers. It is creating a playable lore, background setting, state of the universe that is not driven by monetary interests (see: game publisher), but by our ability of finding a story believable in Trek canon.
Sure you can STF in a Galor or Bioship, but that stuff is OOC, not compatible with fleet canon, and as far as character stories are considered, it didnt happen.
This right here is the important part of deciding what can happen in "our fleet's Trek universe". Not moot. And it's a team effort, so an opinion would be cool.
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 26, 2014 7:34:36 GMT
(Darn phone char limit) Creating a dishonest quasi-ban by crippling it so much that noone wants it is the worst thing to do IMO. We can and should be honest enough for a "no". Because in here, in this RPG-bubble inside the STO game, WE are Starfleet. We, the players. So we do not guesstimate. We decide, together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 14:42:50 GMT
Let me disagree with you there. We are rolepkayers, trying to stick close to what is canon in the universe we're playing in. STO itself, the game, is completely disregarded. Else all of us wozld be Admirals and everyone of us would have lived the game storyline and saved the universe twice daily. The "complete and utter moot point" of creating our own storyline instead of just using what little PWE provides is the main idea of what we do in this fleet of roleplayers. It is creating a playable lore, background setting, state of the universe that is not driven by monetary interests (see: game publisher), but by our ability of finding a story believable in Trek canon. Okay, I think you misunderstood my final paragraph. I was provided a counter against the silly arguments and controversy of why Cryptic put bio-ships in-game, not attacking the lines between OOC and IC. I was a tired when I wrote that post, and I agree my original solution was a bit... strange, and ultimately questionable at best. But here's what we should do. We should schedule an OOC meeting to gather our heads and get everyone in the fleet's opinion on this, since it has potential to affect everyone's character. In my opinion, I'm a little disappointed that nothing like this was done in the first place. We could have easily debated and voted on the issue. If there was a result against my opinions I wouldn't have a problem with it, because everyone would have gotten a fair say in the matter. And now's where I revise my solution. If there's an eventual repeal to this ban we should have Pathfinders and GMs moderate the use of IC bioships. If it's deemed a player is overpowering and God-modding their ship that character should be banned from using one IC. I still believe this should be discussed at an OOC meeting with everyone tuning in to add their opinions, and I would be perfectly happy and content with any decision that meeting makes.
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 26, 2014 14:51:50 GMT
Yus, I thought as much, still wanted to provide clarity.
Same for the meeting.. 160 players atm. You cant gather them in chat. This threadd is said opiniongathering.
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Post by starjumpersix on Apr 26, 2014 15:25:48 GMT
And now's where I revise my solution. If there's an eventual repeal to this ban we should have Pathfinders and GMs moderate the use of IC bioships. If it's deemed a player is overpowering and God-modding their ship that character should be banned from using one IC. I still believe this should be discussed at an OOC meeting with everyone tuning in to add their opinions, and I would be perfectly happy and content with any decision that meeting makes. If I'm reading that right, you basically put the power to control who does and doesn't have bioships in Pathfinder hands...in which case, nothing changes no matter which way the vote swings cause they've already put the banhammer to the things. And considering the reactions people on the forum are having, the vast majority of people in the fleet support the ban on IC bioships.
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Post by hszmv on Apr 26, 2014 15:41:28 GMT
Yes. The forums exist because Chat is a strange and confusing place where valid arguments might die because someone is spamming his/her opinion and won't let others get a word in edgewise.
You want a discussion: Here it is. You don't like it here because you don't use the forums? Well, it's your right to abstain from expressing opinion.
Addressing the issue of the "does Starfleet do evil-ectomies on Bio Ships", the issue did come up when the Pathfinders were talking. We did agree that while, on the books, Starfleet DOES NOT DO THAT, it might make a good plot where misguided Starfleet officers do do it... But as this fleet has a strong history in anti-illegal operations ops... so we wouldn't be a party to this. So yes, we did talk about the gutting. And yes, we did find it ugly and un-Starfleet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 22:31:58 GMT
Why is everyone so focused on Starfleet, we have lots of other characters in the fleet that are not Starfleet. Considering we've had non starfleet members commit much more horrific and actual illegal things than gutting a bio ship. (murder, necessary scientific experiments, wholesale killing 'enemies' rather than using diplomatic channels)
These ships aren't sentient like Tin Man, they're just ships that are made up of biological material, heck starfleet uses bio-neral packs. Not much difference.
The FE that was RP'd our fleet wholesale killed these things.
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 27, 2014 3:23:30 GMT
*blinks* Self defense.. you heard of that, right?
The focus on Starfleet, a huge organization with lots of knowledge and power, kinda simplifies things. If they can't do it with the resources they have, -maybe- KDF could still do it.. but not an individual. If they won't do it for moral reasons, they'd prosecute anyone doing so. Both cases should apply here.
Like Memory Beta says, the fact that Undine pilots have to telepathically control the ships to do combat actually puts them extremely close to Gomtu and Gekli, because it means they have their own mind that has to be controlled to make it fight.
With Memory Alpha being this clear, I don't know why we keep debating it. They're not factory-produced tools. B5 has Vorlon ships as a similar thing, Avatar has the birds and whatnot that are made to fight via mind meld.
So yes, we all shot hostile life forms which were about to wipe us all out, to not get killed ourselves..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 12:19:32 GMT
Nowhere did it say they were sentient, they are living tools basically. TinMan was sentient and operated on its own, we've no evidence these ships do that. Kdf sure but you keep ignoring the non starfleet ppl in the fleet
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Post by Chris Winters on Apr 27, 2014 13:24:28 GMT
Like I said, if thousands of scientists cannot figure out undine biology in decades, having access to all they need free of charge.. how would an independent char without that kind of support do that. Believably. Without destroying the undine race as the most powerful foe we have.
For good stories we need badguys. Borg, undine, iconians are necessary. Learning all about them and making them do your bidding destroys them. Those poor lads just got here. It's bad enough you can't scare a pakled with puny Borg anymore.. don't kill the fluidics off a week after release already. And keep in mind, an entire Borg collective failed to do this, too. One that still is more ruthless, effective and powerful than Starfleet in its pursuit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 14:34:12 GMT
You're right we do need adversaries that actually pose a threat. I'm sure there is a balance somewhere if the time is put into the development.
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krow
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Post by krow on Apr 30, 2014 18:06:25 GMT
Mercs wouldn't be able to figure out how to work Undine Biotech. So having a Merc with a Bioship is even sillier than having a Fed with one.
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Post by emulator on Apr 30, 2014 20:00:57 GMT
Babylon 5. Season 3, Episode 8 (Messages from Earth)
If you people want to know how BAD the idea is to try and take control of a BioShip or any ship that required Telepathy to control, (Should anyone dare try it), watch that episode and you will see how badly that can go.
That's all I will say on the matter.
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ryftlord
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"The first lesson you learn is loyalty. The second is where it shouldn't be placed."
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Post by ryftlord on May 1, 2014 0:33:23 GMT
I would say its not allowed for Feds, Republicans. Klingons.... they could do it, but would they sully their hands with ugly undine tech? That's a question for klingon experts. As far as mercs and such, I dont mind as long as the ship is not godmoded and can be shot to pieces. I'd think Mercs would be even less likely to have the ships, do you think Undine would fall to Mercs when it took great effort on the part of Starfleet, the Republic, and the KDF to take them down? I also doubt that Undine would travel alone in enemy space and allow a ship to fall into enemy hands so easily, mercs couldn't realistically do it, in my mind anyway.
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krow
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Post by krow on May 1, 2014 13:16:58 GMT
Krow had an entire army of them. And so far, the arguments I heard were not "How to" but "unethical" . Uh, what?
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Post by Chris Winters on May 1, 2014 13:24:26 GMT
Krow had an entire army of them. And so far, the arguments I heard were not "How to" but "unethical" . Then by all means, read again. It's in there at least 5 times that if a government with endless ressources cannot do it, an individual or small power with limited to little resources has no chance to do it either.
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