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Post by Geralyn on Mar 18, 2015 21:48:46 GMT
Discussion on Admirality in the 146th
Note: There are two items being put out for discussion with this post. I'm going to ask that those who comment please comment on both items. The two issues are not bound to each other – it is possible that the fleet will vote in favor of one, but not the other, or both, or neither.
And I'm going to ask that no other items be brought up in comments. We want these discussions to remain focused, and chances are future discussions may very well cover your existing concerns. Having said that, comments (or parts of comments) that stray from the topics will be moderated.In the Storytellers, we've always stated up till now that we don't dictate or restrict character types. But time and time again certain character types and/or abilities have rarely, if ever, positively affected RP or the fleet due to their very nature. And the Pathfinders have been asked to bring some of these before the fleet for discussion As was stated in an earlier post of mine, there has long been confusion about the actual scope and duties of a given rank, and three posts were made to clear up this confusion dealing with cadets and enlisted personnel, line officers, and flag officers. Flag officers are inherently difficult, because if played realistically, their very nature inherently tends to restrict the kinds of RP they can be involved in, and the amount of responsibilities they should have tends to be more than the average player wants to deal with. In other words, most players tend to play their flag officers like captains. Therefore, the following two items have been brought to the Pathfinders for consideration, and we bring them now to you for discussion. Item #1: Lowering the IC rank cap from Vice Admiral to Rear Admiral, Upper Half.
Ever since the beginning of the Storytellers, we have had an explicit restriction against four or five star admirals. Such ranks are so large in responsibility, scope, and authority that RP can not support the involvement of such officers. But even a Vice Admiral wields responsibility and authority far in excess of most realistic RP scenarios. In canon Starfleet hierarchy, only one Vice Admiral would be involved in a fleet as small as the 146th. And it has always been the intent that no officer would ICly outrank the IC fleet admiral. Therefore, it has been proposed by many of our members to lower the maximum IC rank to Rear Admiral, Upper Half. Note: Any existing Vice Admiral characters as of this post will not be forced to demote their characters, since that would violate the rule of consent in RP. Any existing Vice Admirals who wish to voluntarily demote/retcon their rank can certainly be reassured that they can ask for advice or help in the process. Any characters promoted to Vice Admiral AFTER this post will be subject to the decision that will be made by fleet vote on this matter.
Item #2: Restriction of self promotion
As detailed in my post about flag ranks, the job of a flag officer is complex one. And flag officers in a fleet need to be fit into the hierarchy of command. Until now, players have been free to self-promote their characters to any rank permitted by the fleet. Several fleet members have proposed that self-promotion be limited to the rank of captain, and that promotion to flag rank only happen in IC circumstances, coordinating with the IC fleet Admiral. This would allow for better integration of flag officers into the command structure, a better portrayal of flag officers in fleet operations, and a preventative measure to address past complaints of abuse of IC authority. Note: Any existing flag officer characters as of this post will not be forced to demote their characters, since that would violate the rule of consent in RP. Any existing flag officer who wish to voluntarily demote/retcon their rank can certainly be reassured that they can ask for advice or help in the process. Any characters promoted to flag officer AFTER this post will be subject to the decision that will be made by fleet vote on this matter. We look forward to seeing your thoughts on these matters. Remember, please comment on both items. Each will be put to a separate vote.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Mar 19, 2015 1:41:59 GMT
Item #1: Lowering the IC rank cap from Vice Admiral to Rear Admiral, Upper Half.
Ever since the beginning of the Storytellers, we have had an explicit restriction against four or five star admirals. Such ranks are so large in responsibility, scope, and authority that RP can not support the involvement of such officers. But even a Vice Admiral wields responsibility and authority far in excess of most realistic RP scenarios. In canon Starfleet hierarchy, only one Vice Admiral would be involved in a fleet as small as the 146th. And it has always been the intent that no officer would ICly outrank the IC fleet admiral. Therefore, it has been proposed by many of our members to lower the maximum IC rank to Rear Admiral, Upper Half. I am all for this. Playing upper ranks in any capacity besides as a support role to help Fleet RP has always seemed silly to me. Why be the pencil pusher when you can be the guy in the "trenches"? Item #2: Restriction of self promotion
As detailed in my post about flag ranks, the job of a flag officer is complex one. And flag officers in a fleet need to be fit into the hierarchy of command. Until now, players have been free to self-promote their characters to any rank permitted by the fleet. Several fleet members have proposed that self-promotion be limited to the rank of captain, and that promotion to flag rank only happen in IC circumstances, coordinating with the IC fleet Admiral. This would allow for better integration of flag officers into the command structure, a better portrayal of flag officers in fleet operations, and a preventative measure to address past complaints of abuse of IC authority. Never thought about this myself but then again I've never promoted any of my characters. I think this is a really good idea. It pushes people to play the lower rank and file that would be out doing things and not giving orders behind desks or from flagships.
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Post by FoxCDN on Mar 19, 2015 5:09:34 GMT
#1: If anything I'd like to see ranks actually limited to Captain personally and those unless actually actively generating RP for others or acting as an actual significant role in that position be asked to reduce their rank. As stated most of the RP our fleet does isn't conducive to rank held higher than that of a Captain. IMHO, people forget how much responsibility LTC to Cpt have and how most of these ranks command ships that reflect their rank.
#2: Sure but I think I'd prefer an idea idea of being able to promote a character once on your own but a second time doesn't make much sense (limited to Captain and under of course). We for the most part play the characters day to day and don't RP time skipping much at all. More than one promotion in such a short period of time just doesn't make sense to me and one HUGE reason why I've often passed off promotions recommended for my characters due to their age and time in.
All in all just my $0.02
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krow
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Posts: 177
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Post by krow on Mar 19, 2015 20:26:31 GMT
Personally, I think both things are a long time coming. Admirals are boring, so limiting them is always a good idea. I'm with Fox a bit on #1. Limiting to captain would be nice. But, not really necessary as long as no one's over our elected fleet admiral.
As for self promotion, it's a good idea. Not sure why anyone would want to promote themselves higher than captain really. Unless they want to get into the petty bullshit of "I outrank you, do what I say" or trying to avoid people telling YOU what to do ICly. Both of which are silly. As long as, say for example, an Ensign can promote their character to Lt. or something. Because let's be honest, how often do people get IC promotions from other characters in this fleet? If I wanted a low rank character promoted, I'd have to wait AGES to get one. Because I'd have to wait for Senpai to notice me.
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asd886
Member
Hey, dude.
Posts: 34
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Post by asd886 on Mar 19, 2015 20:43:11 GMT
I agree fully with point #1. Rear Admiral LH is still a brassy rank and holds a lot of power in RP scenarios. I think people should be supported to play ranks even lower than captain, as a lower rank allows for more flexibility in their character's personality and interactions.
I also agree with point #2, so long as people reserve the right to make characters up to the IC rank of captain. As I said, admirals hold a lot of power; 146's should be chosen wisely as it probably wouldn't have all that many assigned to it.
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mobius395
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In life, you need to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em.
Posts: 47
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Post by mobius395 on Mar 19, 2015 21:47:13 GMT
#1: Honestly, I'm sorta indifferent to this one. It hasn't affected me directly, because I've never wanted to be an Admiral character. I think lowering the limit is a good thing for the future, be it Lower Half or Upper Half.
#2:I'm gonna have to agree with Krow on this one. I think self promotion should be allowed to an extent. My opinion on it is that they can promote themselves up to Commander, maybe Captain. Maybe. The reason here is, it's very rare to get an IC promotion from another person. As Krow said, it can take months, I've seen one where someone was an Ensign and didn't get to Lieutenant Junior Grade for 2 years.
Just my $0.02 on the matter.
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Post by Geralyn on Mar 19, 2015 21:58:35 GMT
#2:I'm gonna have to agree with Krow on this one. I think self promotion should be allowed to an extent. My opinion on it is that they can promote themselves up to Commander, maybe Captain. Maybe. The reason here is, it's very rare to get an IC promotion from another person. As Krow said, it can take months, I've seen one where someone was an Ensign and didn't get to Lieutenant Junior Grade for 2 years. I'll point out that the original post did say the self-promotion limit proposed is Captain, and not lower. There's no intent on making it any lower than that. Having said that, again I'll direct you to the post on line officers, where a reference is made to a canon source (TNG: "Datalore") that very specifically says the typical ensign remains at the rank of ensign for THREE years, so two years is technically fast-tracking. :-)
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Post by starjumpersix on Mar 19, 2015 22:06:42 GMT
#1: I think that's a good idea and welcome it.
#2: I'm alright with self-promotion, but I do agree that it should be limited, and the rank of Captain seems a good place to keep it limited to.
I really don't have much else to say on the matter.
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ryftlord
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Post by ryftlord on Mar 19, 2015 22:59:17 GMT
#1. I'm of the opinion that the rank of Vice Admiral should be reserved to those given it by either executive decision or election. As far as RA Upper half is concerned, I have no issue with people being of that rank as long as they act like someone of that rank. An Admiral title of any rank comes with a great deal of responsibility, and it is not given to people who would throw it around as a means of saying "Do this for me. Why? Because I'm an Admiral."
That being said, there is very little "pulling rank" going on in the fleet as it is, so unless it suddenly starts again, I see no issue.
#2. A Self promotion cap of Captain has always made sense in my head. Going from Commander to Captain is leap of it's own, but going from Captain to a flag officer seems a bit much without IC action and proof that they are responsible enough to hold that rank.
On the other hand, since joining the fleet I have never had a character above Commander-equivalent. I enjoy playing lower ranks for the simple facts that they get to do more and people generally find them more approachable.
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mobius395
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In life, you need to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em.
Posts: 47
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Post by mobius395 on Mar 19, 2015 22:59:44 GMT
I'll point out that the original post did say the self-promotion limit proposed is Captain, and not lower. There's no intent on making it any lower than that. Having said that, again I'll direct you to the post on line officers, where a reference is made to a canon source (TNG: "Datalore") that very specifically says the typical ensign remains at the rank of ensign for THREE years, so two years is technically fast-tracking. :-) I'd like to point out, waiting in a game for 10 years to get a command typically isn't very fun, but what the heck. I'm going to shut up on this now, probably for the best. Already made two mistakes in one post, a 3rd is likely a bad thing.
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Post by Geralyn on Mar 19, 2015 23:17:47 GMT
I'll point out that the original post did say the self-promotion limit proposed is Captain, and not lower. There's no intent on making it any lower than that. Having said that, again I'll direct you to the post on line officers, where a reference is made to a canon source (TNG: "Datalore") that very specifically says the typical ensign remains at the rank of ensign for THREE years, so two years is technically fast-tracking. :-) I'd like to point out, waiting in a game for 10 years to get a command typically isn't very fun, but what the heck. I'm going to shut up on this now, probably for the best. Already made two mistakes in one post, a 3rd is likely a bad thing. My comment about fast-tracking was made in jest, more than anything. No need to take it personally. I'm well aware there's a need to balance realistic ages with real-life time constraints in an MMO, and that will be the topic of a future discussion planned very soon.
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Flynt
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Post by Flynt on Mar 20, 2015 2:53:00 GMT
I'll be honest. I need some clarification here, because there are really two layers of IC limiting at play. Which endorsement are you requesting? 1) That Starfleet characters who are ICly assigned to the 146th fleet will be limited to Rear Admiral (LH or UH); or, 2) That any Starfleet character that interacts with the 146th, whether assigned or not, will be limited to Rear Admiral; or. 3) Both of the above.
I ask because I perceive that we have more IC Admirals that interact with the 146th without being in the 146th chain of command.
Personally, both of these recommendations seem obvious, and as much as I'd like to play devil's advocate on this matter, I don't see a legitimate reason to do so. That being the case, if we're making the effort to be clearer on the letter of the law, then let's say what we mean, and not leave room for interpretation.
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Post by Geralyn on Mar 20, 2015 3:10:17 GMT
I'll be honest. I need some clarification here, because there are really two layers of IC limiting at play. Which endorsement are you requesting? 1) That Starfleet characters who are ICly assigned to the 146th fleet will be limited to Rear Admiral (LH or UH); or, 2) That any Starfleet character that interacts with the 146th, whether assigned or not, will be limited to Rear Admiral; or. 3) Both of the above. I ask because I perceive that we have more IC Admirals that interact with the 146th without being in the 146th chain of command. Personally, both of these recommendations seem obvious, and as much as I'd like to play devil's advocate on this matter, I don't see a legitimate reason to do so. That being the case, if we're making the effort to be clearer on the letter of the law, then let's say what we mean, and not leave room for interpretation. The proposals would cover any character that is OOCly part of the Storyteller fleet, regardless of IC assignment. A count of all flag-rank Admirals, ICly in the 146th or not, currently tally at single digits. However, not all that long ago, the numbers were MUCH higher, and some players used "I'm not in the 146th chain of command" as a reason to justify the high ranks, while still attempting to throw the weight of their ranks around. There would be no reason Starfleet would send a slew of high-ranking flag officers from other fleets or posts to Starbase 146 constantly. And again, no character of flag rank as of the initial posting of this discussion would be required to demote/retconn their character's rank, though if they choose to do so, they can certainly ask for advice or assistance in doing so.
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Claudius
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Post by Claudius on Mar 21, 2015 3:34:37 GMT
Agreed and Agreed on both Item 1 and 2.
We don't need a fleet of ultra high ranking admirals. We are only a small support fleet afterall. So the fleet should really only be made up of Captains, each in control of thier own ships, and the lower ranking characters that serve onboard those ships and the station. Realistic ranks. :3 Why anyone would need to give themself the rank above captain as part of the fleet? Other than the one IC admiral that is already involved with the fleet ofcause.
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kigo
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Post by kigo on Mar 23, 2015 1:23:10 GMT
I definitely agree with both #1 and #2. At one point I had T'Kigo as a RA LH, and made the decision to lower her to Captain rank. Personally I would say being at the Captain rank is better than being at an Admiral rank, since normally you would never see an Admiral in command of a single ship like I've seen from so many other RPers outside of the fleet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 3:23:38 GMT
Personally I'm going throw a monkey wrench out there (not a big one) by saying that perhaps that unless you are a roleplayer rank in fleet or higher, you cannot self promote or be higher than commander. This way, once your trial period has ended and you are a full fledged member of the fleet, you can be promoted (or promote yourself) to captain and take command of your IC ship. As I said this is just me throwing a wrench into the works but otherwise I would only amend the proposal to limit ranks to captain. Other than those ideas I'm cool with whatever.
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Post by slinkiisu on Mar 24, 2015 14:10:56 GMT
Will this at all effect Kat, since she's been an IC VA since before the split? I don't mind bumping her down to RA, but she's supposed to be heading a task force, not a job for a captain. Not to mention she's been the head judge on two trials of Starfleet officers. Other than that, I'm all for the change. Go change! *waves flag*
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Post by hszmv on Mar 24, 2015 14:47:10 GMT
Will this at all effect Kat, since she's been an IC VA since before the split? I don't mind bumping her down to RA, but she's supposed to be heading a task force, not a job for a captain. Not to mention she's been the head judge on two trials of Starfleet officers. Other than that, I'm all for the change. Go change! *waves flag* We're asking to reserve the rank of Vice Admiral to the IC 146 fleet head. If you have an admiral, we would appreciate if you take a demotion via retcon to RA or lower but I think the grandfather clause is in play, so it's your choice.
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Post by LoonyEclipse on Mar 24, 2015 15:20:44 GMT
Yeah, I've got an RA (Lower) admiral, and this makes total sense to me up to and including perhaps a ceiling rank for trial members of captain.
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Post by firebringeraxel on Mar 24, 2015 20:06:28 GMT
Will this at all effect Kat, since she's been an IC VA since before the split? I don't mind bumping her down to RA, but she's supposed to be heading a task force, not a job for a captain. Not to mention she's been the head judge on two trials of Starfleet officers. Other than that, I'm all for the change. Go change! *waves flag* Task Forces are generally lead by Rear Admirals so in all actuality the demotion actually lines the concept up with canon more.
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